Christian baker sued again over gender-transition cake

[audrey horne 1,180]

On 4/16/2020 at 9:16 AM, adterp said:

“Does a business owner have the right to refuse service to an LGBTQ individual or same-sex couple on the basis of faith?” nnnnn

Faith kills. What about LGBTQIA protective rights instead of phobic and permissive excuses to harm. And what? Those businesses could have crossed out pink triangles on their doors? That’s fcking terrifying. 

@ChromeAngel Lmao all you want but our rights are so recents and fragiles that every discordance are worth fighting for, even for a cake. 

[lodylody 1,790]

2 minutes ago, IcePrincess said:

This is his business and he decides who to make the cake for.

As a customer I will go to another baker and he will get my money. End of discussion

It's simple. 

Nobody has the right to tell you that you must provide this service.
Since I provide the service, I can decide who to deliver it to.

And yes I'm gay

SCREAMING at the finishing comment   

But this, exactly.

Also, it's really important to consider that this isn't outright refusal to serve an LGBT individual. It's the refusal to bake a cake that "condones" (awful word choice but I can't think of anything better, and from his perspective that's probably how he sees it) LGBT "lifestyles" (again, awful word and I apologise - definitely not my personal views). And the fact that he refuses is really sad, and it's sad people still face this sort of discrimination. But if freedoms are taken away from him, they're taken away from everyone else as well.

Furthermore, to everyone suggesting he should be forced to bake this damn cake. Do you think it'll do anything positive for LGBT acceptance?  Its effects can only be negative on LGBT acceptance. Really.

[JINNOCIDE 3,840]

10 minutes ago, lodylody said:

If you're given two choices:

- The Christian is forced to make pro-LGBT cakes, and LGBT bakers are forced to make cakes with Bible verses which they disagree with, or...

- Everyone is free to refuse to create art they disagree with.

Which would you choose? Would you like the state to impose that you have to bake cakes quoting the anti-gay Bible verses?  

Giving people artistic freedom will not stop you getting a cake for any occasion. And I'm certain a cake baked with love is better than one baked by a seething Christian who hates the LGBT community  

But at the end of the day, you don't see articles about how LGBT people denied putting Bible verses on their cake (or religious people asking for anti LGBT verses on their cakes tbh), that's my struggle.

I know this seems like no big deal at all but remember that people still have pretty much homophobic (and racist/mysoginistic) thoughts down to their core due to older generations way of thinking/acting towards minorities. 

People will use ANYTHING to deny us the most basic things (as basic as a cake) and it's down right problematic because we shouldn't let this things happen to us.

I mean can you imagine you on your marry way to ask for a special cake to something that's important to you and get your order denied because the person on the other end thinks your entire existence is wrong? It's down right LGBTphobic, and it shouldn't be allowed.

[lodylody 1,790]

Just now, JINNOCIDE said:

But at the end of the day, you don't see articles about how LGBT people denied putting Bible verses on their cake, that's my struggle.

I know this seems like no big deal at all but remember that people still have pretty much homophobic (and racist/mysoginistic) thoughts down to their core due to older generations way of thinking/acting towards minorities. 

People will use ANYTHING to deny us the most basic things (as basic as a cake) and it's down right problematic because we shouldn't let this things happen to us.

I mean can you imagine you on your marry way to ask for a special cake to something that's important to you and get your order denied because the person on the other end thinks your entire existence is wrong? It's down right LGBTphobic, and it shouldn't be allowed.

No, you don't see them. But if you get what you want and this man is forced to bake this cake, then a gay baker could equally be forced into baking a cake containing anti-gay Bible verses. You can't get one without the other. And for that reason, I think it's a very big deal that he can refuse to bake the cake and everyone retains their right to creative expression.

It's not as simple as "we are being denied things". You can deny them the same things. Believe it or not, it's actually equal.

Firstly, this baker has already been sued once, very publicly. So whoever went to this baker this time, I believe they were most likely picking a fight. If I wanted a custom cake, I'd probably seek out a bakery who is tolerant of me as a person. If I failed, then I would thank them anyway and go onto the next one. It's sad, but I would treat them with kindness, rather than suing them. If I kick up a fuss and sue them, they're just going to think me and my community are even more evil than they already think we are. If I thank them anyway and wish them a nice day, maybe when I walk out they'll question why they did that and think about how polite and courteous I was in the face of such behaviour. Trying to force people into doing things they don't want to do, will only increase trans- & homophobia, as other communities begin to resent us for our part in forcing them to do things that they don't want to do.

[audrey horne 1,180]

17 minutes ago, lodylody said:

SCREAMING at the finishing comment   

But this, exactly.

Also, it's really important to consider that this isn't outright refusal to serve an LGBT individual. It's the refusal to bake a cake that "condones" (awful word choice but I can't think of anything better, and from his perspective that's probably how he sees it) LGBT "lifestyles" (again, awful word and I apologise - definitely not my personal views). And the fact that he refuses is really sad, and it's sad people still face this sort of discrimination. But if freedoms are taken away from him, they're taken away from everyone else as well.

Furthermore, to everyone suggesting he should be forced to bake this damn cake. Do you think it'll do anything positive for LGBT acceptance?  Its effects can only be negative on LGBT acceptance. Really.

Religious freedom doesn't allow the right to discriminate.

[lodylody 1,790]

6 minutes ago, adterp said:

Religious freedom shouldn't allow the right to discriminate.

It's the freedom of creative expression which is in question here, actually.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/10/christian-owners-bakery-win-appeal-discrimination-ruling-refusing/

EDIT: Think I cited the wrong gay cake case. I'll try to find the right one and get back with the right link. Apologies  

Here's something: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/masterpiece-cakeshops-case-is-about-artistic-freedom-not-discrimination/2017/09/25/1dda5518-9f0d-11e7-b2a7-bc70b6f98089_story.html

[OMonster 15,025]

27 minutes ago, JINNOCIDE said:

But at the end of the day, you don't see articles about how LGBT people denied putting Bible verses on their cake (or religious people asking for anti LGBT verses on their cakes tbh), that's my struggle.

Maybe that's because Christians who want a 'bible cake' wouldn't ask an LGBT bakery to bake that cake  

I mean, why would someone ask an 'anti-gay' baker to bake a trans cake?

It's not as though this bakery is the only bakery in the area. There is CHOICE - and the requester of this trans cake has CHOSEN to contact a notoriously anti-gay baker. That's on them.

Thankfully, though, we live in a world of choice.

And FREEDOM should never be in conflict. 

The baker has the freedom to say no, and the requester has the freedom to go elsewhere.

We all win. 

Impeaching on someone else's freedom to achieve your own facade of freedom is wrong.

And it is a facade. 

Because freedom for a gay / trans person is NOT forcing a bakery to bake the cake. 

Freedom for a gay / trans person is that someone else WILL - willingly - bake the cake. 

That's freedom. 

And the baker is not in any way impeaching on that.

Yet the requester wants to remove the baker's ability to choose what cakes he makes.

Insane!

[audrey horne 1,180]

21 minutes ago, lodylody said:

It's the freedom of creative expression which is in question here, actually.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/10/christian-owners-bakery-win-appeal-discrimination-ruling-refusing/

No it's personal beliefs. Same-sex marriage wasn't legal in Northern Ireland at this time and lawyers have been able to use the "creative expression" excuse to save their phobic stance on the subject. The situation is different than the OP.

Anyhow, thank you for spending so much time fighting against lgbtqia rights, it's very much appreciated on here. 

[Roxanne 591]

“It’s hard to believe that the government punished me for operating my business consistent with my beliefs about marriage. That isn’t freedom or tolerance,” Phillips said in a statement

sorry but it's not public service, it's his private business and it's just cake.  

DON'T HATE ME OR KILL ME  you should accept the fact that even homophobic people can have their rights and opinions when it's not about violence

[Roxanne 591]

On 4/16/2020 at 12:14 PM, Suspiria said:

He didn't refuse service to the woman though, he just refused to make a trans pride cake...

While I certainly don't agree with his beliefs, I don't see how this is all that different than a liberal refusing to make a MAGA cake, or a pro-life cake.

liberals are known for having double standarts

[AsleepOnTheCeiling 6,980]

I can see both sides of the argument. Sadly the LGBT community still gets discriminated in this way, but why force an artist to go against their beliefs? 

I don't know why this lady wants to support this baker though, as he made national news with his last case. Unless they're looking to build a movement out of this and drive him out of business by having him spend all his money on lawsuits. On the other end of this they're probably driving homophobic people to this business. 

[AsleepOnTheCeiling 6,980]

6 minutes ago, Roxanne said:

“It’s hard to believe that the government punished me for operating my business consistent with my beliefs about marriage. That isn’t freedom or tolerance,” Phillips said in a statement

sorry but it's not public service, it's his private business.  

DON'T HATE ME OR KILL ME  you should accept the fact that even homophobic people can have their rights and opinions when it's not about violence

As I've stated above, I'm not sure if he should be forced to bake the cake or not. But you justifying his decision simply by saying it's his private business can be quickly invalidated by looking at the Civil Rights Movement. Lots of private businesses refused service to POC, and them being private businesses did not make it okay. 

[audrey horne 1,180]

5 minutes ago, Roxanne said:

“It’s hard to believe that the government punished me for operating my business consistent with my beliefs about marriage. That isn’t freedom or tolerance,” Phillips said in a statement

sorry but it's not public service, it's his private business.  

DON'T HATE ME OR KILL ME  you should accept the fact that even homophobic people can have their rights and opinions when it's not about violence

Discrimination rights are human rights? Refusing to serve people based on their sexual orientation/gender/gender expression is illegal in some countries already. Being homo/transphobe is not a right .

[Roxanne 591]

5 minutes ago, adterp said:

Discrimination rights are human rights? Refusing to serve people based on their sexual orientation/gender/gender expression is illegal in some countries already. Being homo/transphobe is not a right .

so refusing to serve people based on their religon on political views is OK? I mean if you hate trump supporter and doing something against is OK and on the other side the same action is discrimination? 

Being hater is not a right, not only homo/transphobe    but I dont think that everyone who just dont like lgbt people are homo/transphobic. there are not only lgbt supporters and  homo/transphobic people in the world

[RRR 3,996]

They need to stop bullying this old man. He seems pleasant enough, he's just antiquated in his thinking. My God, how good the gays have it if now we are arguing about a cake.  Take the win, gays.