US Hospitals Considering Universal Do Not Resuscitate (DNR)

[Guest]

Just now, ZacharyMark said:

Well yea, no one should die. But unfortunately with this pandemic, our healthcare personnel are being forced to weigh their options. DNR hasn't happened yet regarding covid-19, but the whole reason it is being considered is because of the reality of low PPE and the surge of potential patients. So hopefully this will not happen, but when the National Guard has to build temp hospitals in parking lots you know that options are becoming scarce. 

That is my entire point...no one should die because someone refuses to work on them. I don't want any healthcare provider to contract the virus. I don't want anyone to get it. And it is disgusting that hospitals are experiencing shortages while individuals have been able to stock pile medical supplies for their own use. My entire point is that it is morally and ethically reprehensible to deny someone a fighting chance, especially if you are in a position to save them (and you had taken an oath to do so).

[Guest]

"I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help."

[DeleteMyAccount 11,881]

2 minutes ago, kcapper said:

That is my entire point...no one should die because someone refuses to work on them. I don't want any healthcare provider to contract the virus. I don't want anyone to get it. And it is disgusting that hospitals are experiencing shortages while individuals have been able to stock pile medical supplies for their own use. My entire point is that it is morally and ethically reprehensible to deny someone a fighting chance, especially if you are in a position to save them (and you had taken an oath to do so).

Well I'm not going to get into specifics because I'm not a health professional. But I would assume that these DNR cases would be if there's basically no chance of recovering a patient. But based on the brief article, this is a matter of extreme scenarios. Especially with a shortage of supplies and an enormous demand of patients. THIS is exactly what scientists and WHO were warning us about months ago. So I'm not going to only judge the healthcare professionals when they only have so much to work with. Again, hopefully it doesn't come to this. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ZacharyMark said:

Well I'm not going to get into specifics because I'm not a health professional. But I would assume that these DNR cases would be if there's basically no chance of recovering a patient. But based on the brief article, this is a matter of extreme scenarios. Especially with a shortage of supplies and an enormous demand of patients. THIS is exactly what scientists and WHO were warning us about months ago. So I'm not going to only judge the healthcare professionals when they only have so much to work with. Again, hopefully it doesn't come to this. 

I'm sure it varies from state to state, but typically a primary care physician has to sign off on a DNR for an individual. Anyone, however, can request a DNR. They are not just for the (known) terminally-ill. This is distressing because they want universal DNR orders for COVID-19 patients, negating their choice completely. We are in a peculiar and frightening situation, I agree, but that should not mean intentionally allowing people to die.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, ZacharyMark said:

Well I'm not going to get into specifics because I'm not a health professional. But I would assume that these DNR cases would be if there's basically no chance of recovering a patient. But based on the brief article, this is a matter of extreme scenarios. Especially with a shortage of supplies and an enormous demand of patients. THIS is exactly what scientists and WHO were warning us about months ago. So I'm not going to only judge the healthcare professionals when they only have so much to work with. Again, hopefully it doesn't come to this. 

As you said, hopefully it doesn't come to this. Nonetheless, it is disgusting and sad that it is even being discussed.

[DeleteMyAccount 11,881]

8 minutes ago, kcapper said:

I'm sure it varies from state to state, but typically a primary care physician has to sign off on a DNR for an individual. Anyone, however, can request a DNR. They are not just for the (known) terminally-ill. This is distressing because they want universal DNR orders for COVID-19 patients, negating their choice completely. We are in a peculiar and frightening situation, I agree, but that should not mean intentionally allowing people to die.

Well no one wants to intentionally kill someone. But like in Italy, it's either have one person die or a handful. That's the danger that hospitals don't want to face. 

I think the article mentioned that two physicians would have to sign off on this. One caring for the patient and another who may not be.

[Guest]

I fervently maintain the deplorability of this...consideration. I will apologize, however, for being so sweeping in my initial post. And the article does note that a presiding physician and another that is not caring for the patient under Halpern's model, which at least calls for a stated reason for why it is necessary AND notification of family.

[LilyLark 10,213]

53 minutes ago, blankpaper said:

They gotta play chess instead of checkers hon. It’s not just some doctors who don’t feel like doing their job, it’s administrators trying to look 15 steps ahead and strategize how to best serve the community and mitigate risk. In any crisis or disaster situation, they prioritize the ones with the best chance of survival. This is really no different

I feel like a lot of people don't understand that the average ICU is usually half full anyway...so with the influx of people with COVID-19....it's going to be insanely grim. Allegedly the morgues in NYC are now overflowing and they might have to start using ice skating rinks/refrigerated trucks.

As you rightly said, they have to prioritize the ones with the best chance of survival because they just don't have enough ventilators and doctors, etc. It's how medical professionals operate in war zones.

*I recently read that Germany's health care workers and hospitals are over-extended...and they have one of the best systems in the world and far less deaths/severe cases due to intense testing.  F*cking terrifying. I wonder if this will change the ways hospitals are run around the world in the future....if there will be a demand for bigger ICUs?

[SharkmanthaC 115,082]

7 hours ago, kcapper said:

Don't want to risk it? Go into another profession! It doesn't pay as much? Welcome to the daily life of most people. You take an oath. If you cannot honor it, do NOT take it. And if you cannot handle it, GO! Bye!!!

This is don't agree with.  I get told this as a teacher all the time.  "This is what you signed up for." No, I did not sign up for spending my entire weekend on school work, being disrespected by parents, having disrespectful children, lower pay than other professionals with the same amount of education than I have, and to be looked down on by society in general. Doctors sign up to protect patients, but they didn't sign up to do it without proper protections for themselves.  They didn't sign up to put themselves in extreme risk like this.  

 

6 hours ago, kcapper said:

I'm sure it varies from state to state, but typically a primary care physician has to sign off on a DNR for an individual. Anyone, however, can request a DNR. They are not just for the (known) terminally-ill. This is distressing because they want universal DNR orders for COVID-19 patients, negating their choice completely. We are in a peculiar and frightening situation, I agree, but that should not mean intentionally allowing people to die.

I agree with you here.  I just don't know what can be done.  I can't imagine the decisions our hospitals are facing right now.  The US was not prepared for this at all.

[Chromaticunt 5,529]

8 hours ago, PartySick said:

They closed the beaches here in Florida (finally ) so now people are flocking to river banks and public parks.

F*cking morons

Some people still have to work. I left work a little early today because I spiked a fever of 101 and felt nauseous. Which isn't totally out of the ordinary for me, I'm susceptible to getting icky, but the fact that we're getting twice as many customers as normal in my store the past few days and everyone acting like this is a vacation, not a quarantine, I'm lowkey concerned.

Just holed up in my room hoping I don't have it 'cause two of my best employees, my grandparents, my best friend's mom, and several of my neighbors would likely not survive it.

People are being reckless and it's going to cost lives.

Florida? WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED

[MJHolland 12,725]

On 3/26/2020 at 1:09 AM, kcapper said:

There's also not a cure for AIDS. There's also not a cure for ebola. There's not a cure for lots of things. Let me say it again, IF YOU SUPPORT THIS DECISION, YOU ARE A DISGUSTING PIECE OF ****!!!

right...but there is a treatment for those things and doctors can save your life from them 

doctors cannot save your life if you have coronavirus and are in critical condition. period. 

at least try to be mature lol 

[Whispering 18,865]

On 3/25/2020 at 11:40 PM, kcapper said:

WHAT THE LITERAL **** IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?!?!?!?! If you support this decision, you are a disgusting piece of ****. And that's a ****ing fact.

 

EDIT: I fervently maintain the deplorability of this...consideration. I will apologize, however, for being so sweeping in my initial post.

The people coding from COVID will be in septic shock and refractory hypoxia, 20 minutes of turning their chest into mush in order to flog a dead heart back into beating won’t change the ultimate outcome. These septic patients are at the point where their heart can no longer compensate. Getting the heart back briefly won’t change the underlying problem.

This will be putting ICU nurses and doctors at a high risk of contacting a potentially fatal virus and we will already be struggling to keep enough medical personnel healthy and alive to take care of our sick population. We are going to run into extreme shortages in ICU trained medical nurses/anesthesiologists/doctors. When that happens, you have irreversible and insurmountable problems. We will be losing professionals  who have been to school/trained for twelve to fifteen years and then have years of experience on top of that. They are impossible to replace.