Joker 2 Misunderstood

[XxBones 867]

35 minutes ago, clementine said:

I think the ppl that say there’s no plot etc are a lil disillusioned as to what good cinema can be but I grew up watching “boring” French cinema and really enjoy the nuances of human interaction, conversation, and emotion.

Joaquin was amazing at portraying his character and made me cry a few times during the film. That makes a good film to me. I think that a lot of people didn’t realize what kind of movie it was (a lot of folks I asked didn’t know it was a musical and we were even told it wasn’t a musical????) so I understand the resentment and the feeling of being lied to I guess.

But ppl kinda let their expectations cloud the magic of the film. Idk I think it’s probably the best film I’ve ever seen

I agree I think the promotion of the movie was done to try to make everyone happy, but by trying to please everyone they pleased no one. I think the resentment it caused is a reason why so many hate on it that it’s become a trend. They aren’t able to see it for it was. 

I have seen so many movies this year (AMC A-List) and a movie in particular that I thought was really bad in my own opinion got a bit better reviews than Joker. I think that’s when I realized right now it’s a trend to hate on Joker to make it seem worse than it is. 

I also think the timing of the movie could have made a difference. If the movie was released after Wicked it could have been seen as an antithesis to it.  The musical aspect doesn’t make something bad. Although I still see people not liking the ending. 

[BeautyisaLie 830]

I completely agree with you. I needed to watch the movie like 3 times to get the point cause I made the mistake of reading a lot of negative reviews before watching it, and that affected my views on the film, but then I realized that the whole movie point is 'no one cares about Arthur Fleck', not his fans in the movie, not the guards, not Lee, and also not the audience watching the film, cause they all came in to see The Joker, but he couldn't do it anymore so everyone turned their back on him and he died in the most pathetic way, and alone. 

I also think the musical part used on the film was necessary and well used as an escape for Arthur, even until the end while he's dying on the floor. The movie for me is brilliant as it is. The only thing that I would've changed is the person who killed him. I think Lee should've done it, or maybe a fan dressed like him would've made the point of the film come full circle.

Edited 12 hours ago by BeautyisaLie

[Shyane 1,475]

5 hours ago, XxBones said:

I gave in and got Joker 2. I was watching some of it again last night and had a few thoughts:

I honestly feel like Joker 2 is misunderstood and will be popular in the future. I think it is hated for a few understandable reasons, one being that it insults the fans of the first but also that the message was not widely understood. Or if it was understood, it was unexpected and not well received.

I believe that the first movie was set out to show the mental illness of Joker and that society should not ignore and deal with it before it becomes bad. What ended up happening was people celebrated Joker at his worst and neglecting why he became this way and the messages of the first movie.

Joker 2 in a way is meta to this message as the beginning cartoon points this out. People cheering Joker on but neglecting the mental illness. Gaga’s character Harlequin also represents these fans because she is this rich, educated girl who likes Joker so much she fakes her mental illness to be in the same asylum as Joker. She ends up finding out he isn’t this amazing Joker persona she thought he was and leaves him. This represents what is basically happening in real life. The fans want Joker so bad that they find out he isn’t Joker, but Arthur Fleck, and they hate it. Joker himself starts to realize this fact. This is why he sings “but he’s only funny by mistake” and “they don’t see his lonely heart break”. A song about realizing people only love him for being Joker even though he struggles.

Lady Gaga confirms this with her song “Happy Mistake”. Although Gaga has talked about this song and related to it personally, it is also on the movie companion album and relates to the movie. The song basically talks about celebrating something that shouldn’t necessarily be celebrated. The lyrics “cheering on a scene absurd” and “I could try to hide behind the makeup, but the show must go on” speak to the fact that even when someone is struggling, even as a performer, people care more about that than the person inside.

It’s understandable why this movie is hated because it really is a big F you to the Joker fans of the first, forcing them to see a reality they don’t want or care to see. But it also sticks to its morals that we shouldn’t ignore mental illness. For this reason, it makes sense why Gaga wanted to be a part of this project because she has advocated for this cause. I think in the future, when there have been endless amounts of cookie-cutter villain movies or people fear how badly mental illness can lead someone, people will crave a movie representing that, and Joker 2 will come back.

 

Shortened pop translation: Joker 2 is ARTPOP and will be appreciated and understood later. The “music not the bling” message was not understood, and the executives of the album hated it because they didn’t like being criticized and don’t care about the music; they want the bling.

I agree with you so much. Before I first watched it, there were already criticisms bombarded online about how much people hate the show. I didn't watch Joker 1 until 2 weeks before Joker 2 came out. I don't know the story behind the comic book about Joker so I didn't anticipate anything when I watch Joker 1 and 2. After I watch Joker 1, I was terrified by how some people misunderstood the message behind the movie. So when I watch Joker 2, I instantly understood what the director is tryin to say. I know fans hated Joker 2 as well as the public that just want to watch exciting films. Joker 2 is not that kind of film. It's more artistic. What it does more is the message it's trying to convey - in a sense, getting things right. I've recently watched some reactions about this film online and it looks like there is a minor but growing audiences loving the brilliance of the movie. This is just my view. Joker 2 is a good, well-directed, artistic movie.

A caveat tho, whether Joker 2 is good or bad has nothing to do with Gaga. Her acting is amazing and she does what she was instructed to.

[Lucas 23,858]

Some of y'all would still find ways & reasons to defend a Gaga project even if it was an album as bad as 143 or The Tortured Ears Department huh

[King of the Fall 3,662]

Just because a movie is misunderstood does not automatically make it good. Joker might have been trying to make a point that a lot of people misunderstood but that does not change the fact it was really boring cinema. I watched it at the theatre with a friend who was not a monster and she said that Gaga was one of the better parts of a very bad movie and the potential of her character was wasted which is what I thought as well.

You can dislike Joker 2 while still having a pretty positive opinion about Gaga's role in it. Gives me flashbacks to some of the discourse around HOG.

Edited 12 hours ago by King of the Fall

[MadArchitect 550]

1 hour ago, King of the Fall said:

Just because a movie is misunderstood does not automatically make it good. Joker might have been trying to make a point that a lot of people misunderstood but that does not change the fact it was really boring cinema. I watched it at the theatre with a friend who was not a monster and she said that Gaga was one of the better parts of a very bad movie and the potential of her character was wasted which is what I thought as well.

You can dislike Joker 2 while still having a pretty positive opinion about Gaga's role in it. Gives me flashbacks to some of the discourse around HOG.

gurl what? it is not a fact that it's boring cinema, say that you personally got bored by it, i had a blast watching it, i was throughoutly engaged, entertained and interested, cinema like all artforms it's subjective, so it is absurd to say that its a fact that a movie like this is boring cinema...

[XxBones 867]

2 hours ago, Lucas said:

Some of y'all would still find ways & reasons to defend a Gaga project even if it was an album as bad as 143 or The Tortured Ears Department huh

The last time I checked this was a Gaga fan site. I would assume that people come here that genuinely like the things she’s done and to talk with others that do too. 
Maybe there should be a Gaga Daily 2 for people that like her work and a Gaga Daily for those who don’t? Maybe you won’t be so bothered by it.

[Shyane 1,475]

2 hours ago, Lucas said:

Some of y'all would still find ways & reasons to defend a Gaga project even if it was an album as bad as 143 or The Tortured Ears Department huh

This thread is about Joker 2 not about defending Gaga. But that being said, I'd totally defend Gaga even if any of her songs are not well acclaimed or commercially successful. I root for Gaga no matter what.

[Versace 7,849]

So I watched the movie rather recently and usually i’m easy to please and enjoy most movies regardless of poor reviews 

I understood immediately while watching the movie why it was not received well and I attribute it to the following 

There indeed is a plot and a story but it was not one fans or general audiences were looking for nor expecting. Using the Joker and Harley Quinn name, DC setting, and ultimately 2 of the most iconic villains, people were hoping for an action packed thriller where these 2 set the world on fire. This is why using new stories on established charecters is risky nowadays and most Disney remakes flop just because of the sheer change in the charecters fiber. While I understand the firs movie in itself put a lot of twists on the Joker from the comics and previous media, they created a successful interpretation by humanizing Joker but keeping in tact his mania and chaos towards the second half of the film. It was a reimagining but gave fans just enough of what they love from Joker to enjoy the movie. In JFAD however, we see a broken down, constrained, confused and ultimately hurting Joker, in a sense they humanized him too much and life imitated the art/the story of people wanting Joker and not Arthur Fleck. From a commercial perspective it was too big of a risk imo. 

Secondly, the overuse of musical elements imo made this movie question its own identity on its genre and I think general audiences were questioning it too. Most attendees of DC character inspired movies would have to be fans of action packed superhero/comic book movies. The last thing these folks wanna see is something that leans on musicals. I think music elements actually work in this Joker’s universe, like him singing “the Joker” was genuinely one of the highlights of the movie and embodied the chaos Joker is known for. I think 3 musical numbers max would have worked for this movie but more than that steered its identity too far and alienated the attending audience or the audience that would have otherwise attended.  

Lastly, the absolute lack of character development and identity of Gaga’s character who is supposedly inspired by one of the most iconic and loved characters Harley Quinn. Gaga’s charecter with all due respect was a crazy new yorker. Harley’s backstory and source material is too rich and interesting to completely abandon just to make Lee a crazy Joker fan in the movie. That’s too one note for Harley. Indeed Harley should be infatuated by Joker but it should be more organic and in a way that slowly transforms her from the sane Harleen to the insane Harley or Lee. We needed an arc for her. It felt like her character was already established, her motives mysterious and her humanity missing. How else can an audience connect with her? 
 

Overall the movie was way deeper than it needed to be, the plot could have been as simple as the joker gets jailed, Lee breaks him out, they go on to create more chaos in the city, that’s it. People just want to be entertained by the characters they love and see then in the light they appreciate, maybe towards the end they can paint a narrative on how it all backfires and the psychological inner workings at play with a moral of a story sequence. But to have the entire movie be this hybrid between a musical and a psychological  thriller with little to no thriller. No wonder the movie flopped. I agree it will be more appreciated with time once people are fully able to let go of their expectations of what it should have been and see it through the lens of Aruther and not Joker.  

 

 

 

[BUtterfield 8 40,689]

I’m sorry but this isn’t one of those “i  10 years everyone’s gonna look back and actually like the movie” type of situations…

Edited 8 hours ago by BUtterfield 8

[OMF 3,115]

If the likes of Tarantino and Francis Ford Coppola loved it, it’s giving me hope. I didn’t watch it at the cinema, I haven’t been to one in years, and waiting until I can rent it at discounted rate (sorry not paying $30aus to rent any new movie). 

[Nathaniel Arven 1,580]

5 hours ago, XxBones said:

I realized right now it’s a trend to hate on Joker to make it seem worse than it is. 

people have been fed mc donalds for years weither it's in movies or in music. 

I really start realising lady gaga has fans that don't even understand why they are here exactly. they forget that she's a real musician that does musician choices and they forget to listen with their hear but there always seems to haev the veil of charts and somebody else's opinion. 

But it's not only their fault. It's the industry that takes the taste and vitamins off the food. 

[JohnWayne92 2,108]

10 hours ago, Roughhouse Dandy said:

Another misunderstood gem lmao 

I guess the görls who get it get it and the ones that don't just don't and never will. V sad for them 

It’s nothing to misunderstand - I understand everything about both films lol they are just bad 

[JohnWayne92 2,108]

10 hours ago, XxBones said:

I agree with some of your points but also disagree with others. When you directly compare it to the first movie, then yes, the plot is minimal and the pacing is slower.

I don’t think this necessarily makes a film bad. A film being perceived as good or bad is subjective and changes constantly. An example, “The Shining,” was criticized for the exact same reasons upon its release. Even Stephen King himself did not like the movie, and the movie was nominated for Razzies. It is now praised as being one of the greatest horror films for things other than the plot.

I only use this as a way to say perception can change. I can’t predict the future or what Joker will become. I could also be wrong and it will be forgotten, but I am not necessarily commenting on whether the movie is good or bad but that there is a clear message that was intended. Maybe the filmmakers were ambitious with this message, but it does not seem understood right now, and it could possibly resonate in the future. I believe maybe in the viewpoint of the studio, it’s a cash grab, but it was used by the creatives to take a chance at new ideas, which I feel people should do more.

I also agree with you about Halloween Ends breaking the norms of the previous. What I think separates this movie from Halloween Ends is that Joker 2 created such a novel and daring idea. I mean, a mainstream villain musical that went against so many conventions? I think this is what will bring people back to it. It really is just my opinion, though, and any artistic work will be subjective and not universally agreed on.

I’m a huge fan of slow burning films, the shining might have slow pacing, but it also has a pay off, something that Joker 2 didn’t have. 
 

As someone who likes to mess with or even torture my readers some, you can’t just make something one big f you to your audience. The big swings and misses come from the fact that they didn’t do any of the big ideas well. The singing wasn’t great, it wasn’t grand, it was blah. The only saving grace for the film was the acting that was given! (IMO)

I wholeheartedly feel like the ideas were there, and I think a lot of the people involved had their hearts in the right place, but I think Todd despised what he created so much, with what it came to be, that he sabotaged it intentionally. He REALLY didn’t wanna make a sequel - but Hollywood loves to make sequels - how do you go about making sure no one can make a sequel to your successful film? You make one with an insane budget (why not the last one made over 1bil, right?) that completely ruins everything that could have been, you defeat the fan base, and you lose the studio millions. Who is gonna wanna take a chance again on that? 206mil compared to 1bil 😬

[Oriane 19,710]

I don't understand the critics saying it doesn't have a plot, but even if it was true, how unknowledgeable and unappreciative about cinema do you have to be to think that a good movie needs a good, well-written plot to be good and interesting?