Spain to take over Catalonia after declaring independence

[Saint Laurent 4,862]

6 minutes ago, New Compassion said:

It sucks that money and power always trumps the wishes of the people.

 

Arguable whether Catalonian people actually want independence though...

[benKo 3,362]

Î find it really hard to have a opinion on this... I'm just gonna observe everything, but I can't really discuss on this topic. I just hope Rajoy won't just send the military police again 

[SpookyKid 15,196]

I saw videos of the Spanish police using force and beating people, it's a mess...

[ctherainbow 3,162]

Maybe this is just me being uninformed, a citizen of a melting pot nation, or knowing a lot less about Spain than I thought I did, but of all the Spanish sub-regions, wouldn't Andalusia have the strongest historical claim to independence?  Again, I don't live there or have really any Spanish/Catalonian friends, so I haven't heard the emotional end of things, but from an outside perspective and as much objective data as I've been able to track down, it doesn't seem like Catalonians face the kind of oppression(before the referendum-related violence) that other groups in other nations do.  Now granted, Catalonia is rich comparatively to Spain as a whole, and the 2008 market crash was scarring for many Spaniards, but it almost feels like Catalonians just don't feel like being the rich part of Spain and helping prop up the rest of the country.  Catalonian culture, from what I've read, was experiencing a resurgence under the Spanish union, so is the economy really enough reason for secession?    🤔

I'd appreciate if somebody from the area could help me out, because I don't feel I have enough information to know yet where I stand on whether or not Catalonian secession is a good thing or not.   🤔

[bumblebee 2,528]

1 hour ago, bleed dior said:

Get them, Spain, we don’t need another Crimea.

excuse you beloved sister/brother, but let us not. 

Crimea "referendum" was conducted while the territory was totally under control of Russian army. Crimea was invaded before the referendum. Russian troops have captured all the most important strategic spots of Crimea and de-facto cut it away from Ukraine  before they conducted the vote

. 

 Yes, Crimea has a very special history. Yes, it belonged to Russia up to 1953 and they claim that they only got back what was rightfully theirs. Yes, Putin invited dozens of ultra-right deputees of European parliament and the deputees of some EU countries, and they put signatures that the referendum was "free and just", which would make the lawful dispute extremely burdensome. Yes, Russian army managed to capture Crimea without casualties from both sides. But from the point of view of international law, Crimea was invaded by a foreign force that chose to hold a referendum there to legitimize their territorial claims. 

That's why Crimea will never resemble Catalonia, even if Catalonia becomes independent.

Crimea resembles Kosovo a lot more. Serbia lost control over Kosovo in an armed conflict of Kosovo War, and after it lost the territory militarily, Kosovo was de-facto independent. The difference of Kosovo and Crimea is that following the Kosovo war, United Nations established an interim administration mission in Kosovo, while no major international organization (except for a couple of European Parliament deputees) established an administration mission in Crimea. Before declaring independence, Kosovo went through UN administration for nearly 10 years, while Crimea joined Russia straight away. Also, Kosovo became independent, while Crimea joined another state.  

Catalonia could have become another "Scotland" case for EU. Both, UK and Spain are monarchies, if I remember it correctly, and Catalonia, in theory, could have conducted the same referendum Soctland did last year or something. But it seems that Catalonia means to Spain (economically) more than Scottland means to UK (economically), that's why the government wasn't and isn't happy about it. 

I just hope that there's no violence on the streets and nobody gets hurt if the government relies on the army, but I hope the heat level is not that high 

[Emvee 8,876]

5 hours ago, Saint Laurent said:

Arguable whether Catalonian people actually want independence though...

That’s not my point. Even if 100% of Catalonians wanted independence, Spain would still view it as unlawful, because of  economics and nationalist pride. Not because they have their best interests in mind. 

[Liza 618]

3 hours ago, bumblebee said:

Catalonia could have become another "Scotland" case for EU. Both, UK and Spain are monarchies, if I remember it correctly, and Catalonia, in theory, could have conducted the same referendum Soctland did last year or something. But it seems that Catalonia means to Spain (economically) more than Scottland means to UK (economically), that's why the government wasn't and isn't happy about it. 

I just hope that there's no violence on the streets and nobody gets hurt if the government relies on the army, but I hope the heat level is not that high 

3

Do you think Spain would have even given Catalonia the opportunity to hold a referendum though? 

[bumblebee 2,528]

1 hour ago, Liza said:

Do you think Spain would have even given Catalonia the opportunity to hold a referendum though? 

I think that when we say "Spain" we mean the government of Spain. So I think that the 1996-2004 and 2004-2011 governments could have theoretically reached the agreement on referendum sometime in the future. Because the UK example shows that even a government of a nuclear country which has a part of its nuclear arsenal in Scotland can allow Scotland to conduct a referendum. Spanish government could have organized the referendum for Catalonia. The losses of Spanish budget could have been compensated by the trade deal. 

Following the 2011 election though, when People's Party (I might have translated the title incorrectly) came to power, the situation changed, because the new government relies on central region voters, and Catalan votes don't mean much for the new government. That's why they can get cocky in the stand-off and are unlikely to offer a referendum to Catalonia. 

And it's also about the economy. Catalonia population is about 16% of total population of Spain, but it accounts (more like accounted)  for 20% of country's GDP and 30% of the country's investment.  

 

[Economy 53,173]

7 hours ago, ctherainbow said:

Maybe this is just me being uninformed, a citizen of a melting pot nation, or knowing a lot less about Spain than I thought I did, but of all the Spanish sub-regions, wouldn't Andalusia have the strongest historical claim to independence?  Again, I don't live there or have really any Spanish/Catalonian friends, so I haven't heard the emotional end of things, but from an outside perspective and as much objective data as I've been able to track down, it doesn't seem like Catalonians face the kind of oppression(before the referendum-related violence) that other groups in other nations do.  Now granted, Catalonia is rich comparatively to Spain as a whole, and the 2008 market crash was scarring for many Spaniards, but it almost feels like Catalonians just don't feel like being the rich part of Spain and helping prop up the rest of the country.  Catalonian culture, from what I've read, was experiencing a resurgence under the Spanish union, so is the economy really enough reason for secession?    🤔

I'd appreciate if somebody from the area could help me out, because I don't feel I have enough information to know yet where I stand on whether or not Catalonian secession is a good thing or not.   🤔

They make up 16% of Spains Population.... But they contribute 20% of Spains tax revenue and only receive 14% of their spending  so they might feel milked

 

Here in Canada the Province of Alberta had a GDP Per Capita that was 50% above National Average, unemployment that went down to 3% at one point and between 2009 and 2013 a wooping 82% of jobs created in Canada were in Alberta despite them having less than 20% of the population 😳

 

Some convos of seperation began there too so its a big factor. Then Oil crashed in 2014, they went into recession and that idea went out the window

 

The fact that Canada has the worlds 3rd largest oil reserves and 97% of that oil is in Alberta was enough to spark seperation talk....

 

So immagine Catalonia that has Economic AND other reasons!!!

[Florian 20,017]

21 hours ago, bleed dior said:

Get them, Spain, we don’t need another Crimea.

21 hours ago, MonsterOfSpain said:

Let's see how this goes, hope it at least works for calling new elections. Democracy and the rule of law must be restored as soon as possible in Catalonia.

The ignorance is strong in those ones  

21 hours ago, Saint Laurent said:

According to international law it isn't though, which is the ultimate authority on relationships between states 

Also not sure what they mean by 'take over'  I hope they don't mean by military intervention since that's also illegal 

Catalonia clearly has grounds for accession from Spain without their permission at this point.

Not exactly, those article are super vague and can be interpreted in multiple ways. That's always the issue with law  

20 hours ago, ctherainbow said:

Maybe this is just me being uninformed, a citizen of a melting pot nation, or knowing a lot less about Spain than I thought I did, but of all the Spanish sub-regions, wouldn't Andalusia have the strongest historical claim to independence?  Again, I don't live there or have really any Spanish/Catalonian friends, so I haven't heard the emotional end of things, but from an outside perspective and as much objective data as I've been able to track down, it doesn't seem like Catalonians face the kind of oppression(before the referendum-related violence) that other groups in other nations do.  Now granted, Catalonia is rich comparatively to Spain as a whole, and the 2008 market crash was scarring for many Spaniards, but it almost feels like Catalonians just don't feel like being the rich part of Spain and helping prop up the rest of the country.  Catalonian culture, from what I've read, was experiencing a resurgence under the Spanish union, so is the economy really enough reason for secession?    🤔

I'd appreciate if somebody from the area could help me out, because I don't feel I have enough information to know yet where I stand on whether or not Catalonian secession is a good thing or not.   🤔

I'm coming from the French part of the historic Catalonia and I'm gonna tell you what I remember : 

"Catalonia" as we know was first only a region of the Wisigoth kingdom under the name of County of Barcelone. During the fall of the kingdom, the new count of Barcelona was the heir of the previous count. In the middle of the 12th century, the Count of Barcelona marries the heir of Aragon Kingdom. With this union they create the Crown of Aragon (composed of 2 regions with a lot of freedom : the Kingdom of Aragon and the Principality of Catalonia) Later the Crow of Aragon is made bigger with Valencia, Sardinia, Balearic islands, Sicily and Naples. I'm gona make things easier : 

The Crown of Aragon has a king but 3 Cortes are established (one for Catalonia, one for Aragon and one for Valencia).A Cort is a "council" composed by noblety, church and cities. They have local rights and tax system and have leverage over the King. Cortes are basically parliaments that allow the King to do his king things. I point that out because back in the days the 3 kingdoms were considered like "sovereign states" eventhough they had a common king !

We're now at the very end of the 15th century and at this point that's spain : 

Right before the begining of the 16th century, the King of the Crown of Aragon marries the heir of the Kingdom of Castille and Spain becomes a monarchy BUT that's not a monarchy as the rest of the Europe aka it's not a feodal pyramid (The king is above the lords that are above the ... etc). The King of Spain HAS TO respect every regions of Spain and their local laws etc.

In 1620 during the 30years war, French and Spain are at war. Cort of Castile asks other Cort and kingdoms of Spain to pay for the defense. Kingdom of Portugal and Principality of Catalonia refuse the request arguing that what happens outside of their borders isn't their problem (and that's actually their right because every region is "independent")

Few years later some part of Spain decides to create the Unions of Arms to have a big army and they even the tax system (since it was local before). Catalonia still refuses to be part of it. Later, the Unions of Arms wants to attack France from the Catalan area. Catalan cort vote some laws to allow few soldiers to spend the winter in Catalonia. But the number isn't enough, the Unions decides to send more troops than allowed and the soldiers abuse the catalan population (for food, sleep, etc).

In 1640 the Catalans can't handle that anymore and it's the begining of a huge riot. The peasants from Gerone kills the soldiers they host and march to Barcelona to kill the vice-king, king judges, king officials etc. The man at the head of the Catalan cort proclaim the Catalan Republic. (these events are the one told in the Catalan anthem that we know nowedays)

In 1641, the Catalan decides to join French Kingdom so they don't have to go at war. French army uses Catalonia strategic location to attack Spain. Few years later, the King of Spain manage to defeat French army in Catalonia and promise to respect Catalan laws and institution (1652 I think) .

Because fate is a shady bitch, the King of Spain dies in 1700 without heir ! It happens one of the biggest conflict in Europe as both France and Austria can claim the throne. I skip most of it but Catalonia supported Austria but France won. France establishes its family on the throne (the Bourbon, they're still reigning nowadays in Spain). One of the first action of the King is to punish the regions that supported Austria. He wants to create a France centralized kingdom copycat and decide to remove the local rights and institutions that the Crown of Aragon (Catalonia, Aragon, Valencia) had. Oh and of course they impose the Castillan as the language of the new institutions ! It's the end of Crown of Aragon.

In 1873, the first republic happens in Spain, Catalonia proclaim itself Catalan State but wants to build a federal state to keep the spain unity. They were helped by Aragon and Valencia. 

In 1931, right before the 2nd Spanih republic, Catalonia proclaims itself "Catalan Republic" and asks other people in Spain to praclaim republics so they can create the Spanish Confederation. The federal project fails and Catalonia accepts to go back into Spain and they obtain a special autonomy status. They tried to be independent in 1934 but failed. Then Franco arrived and supressed every catalan institutions. The rest of the story is knwon.

As you can see, Catalonia has been trying to chose by itself for centuries. They tried to create a spain that would respect everyo people but failed many times. It shouldn't be a surprise if they want to be independent.

 

 

13 hours ago, bumblebee said:

I think that when we say "Spain" we mean the government of Spain. So I think that the 1996-2004 and 2004-2011 governments could have theoretically reached the agreement on referendum sometime in the future. Because the UK example shows that even a government of a nuclear country which has a part of its nuclear arsenal in Scotland can allow Scotland to conduct a referendum. Spanish government could have organized the referendum for Catalonia. The losses of Spanish budget could have been compensated by the trade deal. 

Following the 2011 election though, when People's Party (I might have translated the title incorrectly) came to power, the situation changed, because the new government relies on central region voters, and Catalan votes don't mean much for the new government. That's why they can get cocky in the stand-off and are unlikely to offer a referendum to Catalonia. 

And it's also about the economy. Catalonia population is about 16% of total population of Spain, but it accounts (more like accounted)  for 20% of country's GDP and 30% of the country's investment.  

 

Catalonia didn't wanted to be independent at first. They negociated a new status of autonomy with the previous government. But before it was applied, the PP became the main political force in the country and refused to give the promised new status to Catalonia. Since 2011 Madrid is refusing to communicate with Barcelona.

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

1 hour ago, Florian said:

The ignorance is strong in those ones  

Oh really? Tell me more

Catalan nationalism is purely based off economic reasons, they don't want to be solidary with the poorer parts of Spain and they've been giving fake mantras for years (like the Spanish government "steals" 16000 million euros from them every year which is absolutely false). But that's ok, they have their freedom to demand it. What they can't do is try to impose their minority thinking to a whole region while breaking BOTH Spanish and Catalan legality at the same time. Sorry but that's the truth. If Catalonia actually WAS an oppressed nation the declaration of independence would've gotten some international recognition, but literally no country from Europe (or the rest of the world) did it although Catalonia's government has like 10 "embassies" all over the continent, because everybody knows Catalonia is one of the most autonomous and prosperous regions in Europe. The ridiculous circus the Catalan goverment did not only yesterday, but has been doing ever since last September will be remembered as a big failure. Creating new boundaries is really not something to do on the 21st century, and even less if it's based off selfishness and superiority.

[Florian 20,017]

13 minutes ago, MonsterOfSpain said:

Oh really? Tell me more

Catalan nationalism is purely based off economic reasons, they don't want to be solidary with the poorer parts of Spain and they've been giving fake mantras for years (like the Spanish government "steals" 16000 million euros from them every year which is absolutely false). But that's ok, they have their freedom to demand it. What they can't do is try to impose their minority thinking to a whole region while breaking BOTH Spanish and Catalan legality at the same time. Sorry but that's the truth. If Catalonia actually WAS an oppressed nation the declaration of independence would've gotten some international recognition, but literally no country from Europe (or the rest of the world) did it although Catalonia's government has like 10 "embassies" all over the continent, because everybody knows Catalonia is one of the most autonomous and prosperous regions in Europe. The ridiculous circus the Catalan goverment did not only yesterday, but has been doing ever since last September will be remembered as a big failure. Creating new boundaries is really not something to do on the 21st century, and even less if it's based off selfishness and superiority.

It's funny to talk about legality when Spain is one of the most corrupted country in Europe. Your playing all democratic yet your government is the one trying to solve a political issue with justice. Democracy is BY DEFINITION based on the separation of those two powers ! The only thing that has maintain Catalonia within "Spain" is repression and military actions !! Catalan people has been catalan for WAAAAAAAAAAAY more times then they've been Spanish. They carry a cultural legacy equal if not bigger than Castile !

Thinking the independence is only carried by economical motives is non-sensical and absurd ! Catalan identity has been around since forever and the only reason Catalonia proclaimed independence is because of the pathetic Spanish government ! You ignore the situation of a whole region for almost a decade, refuse to communicate and they you play the crybaby when things got serious. The only "ridiculous circus" is happening in the Moncloa and Rajoy and the PP are the main act ! If the status had been accepted as promised by your previous government, independentists would still represent 5% of the population in Catalonia. What do you want Catalonia to do ? Wait patiently 15 more years of statu quo so maybe they'll finally see something evolve ? 

"Selfishness and superiority" have you read my message above ? Catalonia is the exemple of a nation that want to decide by itself yet gather with iberic peoples to make things better. That's the whole point of the Federal Spain you've almost been. 

As for the EU of course they won't recognize Catalonia, it would be shooting itself in the foot. They'd 1) Have to manage the mess that would become Spain 2) Manage the relation with the new Spain 3) More cases like that would probably appear. HOWEVER, they're currently playing all big speeches and support to Madrid but realpolitik will soon appear and EU can't let Catalonia go away as it's one of the most dynamic region of EU. As for the international you don't get support within a day lmao.

You're talking about creating new boundary but do you know how most of the current borders has been decided ? War and blood ! Is it the most sane relationship you want between a region within a country ? I don't think so. Just look at the mess that is Eastern Europe.

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

13 minutes ago, Florian said:

The only thing that has maintain Catalonia within "Spain" is repression and military actions !!

Catalan people has been catalan for WAAAAAAAAAAAY more times then they've been Spanish. They carry a cultural legacy equal if not bigger than Castile !

HOWEVER, they're currently playing all big speeches and support to Madrid but realpolitik will soon appear and EU can't let Catalonia go away as it's one of the most dynamic region of EU. As for the international you don't get support within a day lmao.

I see you're just driven by independentist's mantras so I think there's no point in keeping this going.  I'm not even gonna talk about the "repression" point because everybody knows that couldn't be further away from the truth. Not even the demonized article 155 is an excuse for separatists to talk about this, as it's only been used to call elections as quick as possible.

Your last point reminds me of when Artur Mas used to say big corporations and banks would "fight" to be in Catalonia while now we see the real disaster as more than 1500 corporations have left Catalonia due to the secessionist adventure. You really must live on a parallel reality if you the EU can't "let Catalonia away". Recognizing Catalonia would be a way of opening doors so other regions would go independent too. It's Catalonia who would struggle out of the EU as free trade would not apply to them. The real truth is that not even the Baltic republics who became independent from the USSR in the 1990s stand with Catalan independentists. Only "vissionaries" paid by the Kremlin like Julian Assange support it.

 

 It's honestly so sad how nationalist parties have tricked people into believing things that would never become true if they became independent. I hope the elections in December open a new political scenario which allows Catalonia to move on and start solving the real problems of the citizenship.

 

[Melech 9,900]

34 minutes ago, Florian said:

It's funny to talk about legality when Spain is one of the most corrupted country in Europe. Your playing all democratic yet your government is the one trying to solve a political issue with justice. Democracy is BY DEFINITION based on the separation of those two powers ! The only thing that has maintain Catalonia within "Spain" is repression and military actions !! Catalan people has been catalan for WAAAAAAAAAAAY more times then they've been Spanish. They carry a cultural legacy equal if not bigger than Castile !

Thinking the independence is only carried by economical motives is non-sensical and absurd ! Catalan identity has been around since forever and the only reason Catalonia proclaimed independence is because of the pathetic Spanish government ! You ignore the situation of a whole region for almost a decade, refuse to communicate and they you play the crybaby when things got serious. The only "ridiculous circus" is happening in the Moncloa and Rajoy and the PP are the main act ! If the status had been accepted as promised by your previous government, independentists would still represent 5% of the population in Catalonia. What do you want Catalonia to do ? Wait patiently 15 more years of statu quo so maybe they'll finally see something evolve ? 

"Selfishness and superiority" have you read my message above ? Catalonia is the exemple of a nation that want to decide by itself yet gather with iberic peoples to make things better. That's the whole point of the Federal Spain you've almost been. 

As for the EU of course they won't recognize Catalonia, it would be shooting itself in the foot. They'd 1) Have to manage the mess that would become Spain 2) Manage the relation with the new Spain 3) More cases like that would probably appear. HOWEVER, they're currently playing all big speeches and support to Madrid but realpolitik will soon appear and EU can't let Catalonia go away as it's one of the most dynamic region of EU. As for the international you don't get support within a day lmao.

You're talking about creating new boundary but do you know how most of the current borders has been decided ? War and blood ! Is it the most sane relationship you want between a region within a country ? I don't think so. Just look at the mess that is Eastern Europe.

The referendum and independence wasn't democratic at all as well though. Not even 50% voted in the referendum and yet Catalonian lawmaker called for independence. That's not how it works. 

[Florian 20,017]

1 minute ago, MonsterOfSpain said:

I see you're just driven by independentist's mantras so I think there's no point in keeping this going.  I'm not even gonna talk about the "repression" point because everybody knows that couldn't be further away from the truth. Not even the demonized article 155 is an excuse for separatists to talk about this, as it's only been used to call elections as quick as possible.

Your last point reminds me of when Artur Mas used to say big corporations and banks would "fight" to be in Catalonia while now we see the real disaster as more than 1500 corporations have left Catalonia due to the secessionist adventure. You really must live on a parallel reality if you the EU can't "let Catalonia away". Recognizing Catalonia would be a way of opening doors so other regions would go independent too. It's Catalonia who would struggle out of the EU as free trade would not apply to them. The real truth is that not even the Baltic republics who became independent from the USSR in the 1990s stand with Catalan independentists. Only "vissionaries" paid by the Kremlin like Julian Assange support it.

 It's honestly so sad how nationalist parties have tricked people into things that would never become true if they became independent. I hope the elections in December open a new political scenario which allows Catalonia to move on and start solving the real problems of the citizenship.

 

I'm FRENCH, I'm not following any independentist media or association, I'm not driven by any independentist mantra. If Northern Catalonia was asking to join Catalonia as a state I would vote no   . I base my opinion on history and facts !

You're not READING what I'm saying. I'm talking about centuries of history and you're talking about the last few years. PUT THINGS IN CONTEXT !

Catalonia is in the top 20 of the NUT2 gdp ranking !!!  There are 276 NUT2 areas !! The EU can't let Catalonia go away. 

As for the 1500 that's complete propaganda. They didn't LEFT Catalonia, they moved their head offices (aka an address on a paper) and that's completely logical. Why would a company risk to lost the access to the 500 millions people of the EU. A company needs stability to grow. But be sure that if Catalonia became a better option in the future they'll move their head office back.

The real problem isn't Catalonia ! The real problem is how Madrid has handled things for almost a decade. The only responsibles for this mess are the people in charge of the Moncloa for the past 7 years !!

It's also funny how you only answer to 10% of my message. But well, it's hard to face the truth.