Churchill statue defaced, Edward Calston statue pulled down

[Bt1 5,213]

24 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said:

Depends on what type of violence. Don’t get smart with generalizing statement. 

Imagine downplaying famine. Couldn’t be me! 

Search for my previous quote. 

I didnt downplay anything. Just made some mentions. Anyone is free to have their own opinion. More information doesnt hurt anyone, at least in theory. 

Churchill role was there. I see the other factors as important. U are free to see the other factors how you want. No need for another argument in this thread. Have a nice day. 

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

You attacked me personally several times, even in this thread alone  Honestly what planet are you on?

You came for me first. Don't poke the beat and you won't get bitten. If you throw pebbles at people, don't be surprised if they pick up those same pebbles and throw them back at you...or worse, pick up rocks instead.

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

Saying things like "pro-black" is really disturbing. Black people aren't any different from you, except from the pigment in their skin. Its not a topic like being for or against abortion, or guns for example. Black people are human beings just like you

[Harry 26,836]

6 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

You came for me first. Don't poke the beat and you won't get bitten. If you throw pebbles at people, don't be surprised if they pick up those same pebbles and throw them back at you...or worse, pick up rocks instead.

Indeed. Like when you made several homophobic remarks at me. I know who you are. 

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Indeed. Like when you made several homophobic remarks at me. I know who you are. 

I've been over this and over this. That was a one-off emotional moment that was literally years ago now. And you misinterpreted what I meant. I'm sorry if I offended you but that wasn't my intention, I was trying to raise a valid concern with our dynamic that was getting to me that I wondered was based in gay misogyny. I wouldn't say that now. And I never called you any slurs or anything. I've still got the messages to prove that (found them, there's still there). I was angry and upset and I let my emotions get the better of me. I've grown from that. Yet you still hold me to it all these years later. But you've never apologised to me once for all the things you've said publicly (not even private) about me numerous times, smearing my reputation on this forum, knowing that people will just see what you say and believe it. Calling someone racist without proof is a serious accusation and you don't seem to understand the weight of that. I don't think you'll ever truly comprehend or care how much you actions have upset me.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I even agreed with some of your posts lately about Meghan Markle, so clearly, you think it's ok to criticise black people sometimes but still be pro-black.

This has nothing to do with 1. the BLM movement 2. the protests 3. Churchill's statue being defaced. I talked about Meghan Markle as a person/celebrity, very different. I'm done arguing with you cause you're clearly not self aware at all, sorry but that's the truth. You seem a bit out of it 

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

20 minutes ago, KanyeWest said:

This has nothing to do with 1. the BLM movement 2. the protests 3. Churchill's statue being defaced. I talked about Meghan Markle as a person/celebrity, very different. I'm done arguing with you cause you're clearly not self aware at all, sorry but that's the truth. You seem a bit out of it 

But the point is that it's ok to criticise black people sometimes, and it shouldn't matter if they're a celebrity or not. And I'm done arguing with you as you won't listen to reason. I could easily apply that final sentence to you as well.

[AsleepOnTheCeiling 6,965]

On 6/7/2020 at 7:34 PM, Cookies said:

they're not the superior people. sure, they WERE, but history is history. I wouldn't even want a statue of Hitler taken down. history shows trial and error, and though it is controversial, it's still beautiful to look at how far we've come

Germany doesn't have statues of Hitler, and doesn't really allow for Nazi symbolism either. 

On 6/7/2020 at 10:06 PM, Morphine Prince said:

Yup, and I was never taught this in World History in US public school. We were only taught about his role in WW2. 

You were taught about things other than the U.S., Japan, and Germany during WW2??

On 6/7/2020 at 10:09 PM, Morphine Prince said:

Statues are to commemorate and praise someone. These monsters don’t deserve it. 

Move the statues to museums where people can look at how they were praised despite their atrocities. 

Imagine if Germany had statues of Nazi officials all over the country. Sounds insane, right? Because IT IS. And that’s exactly what happens in other countries. 

In the US it is Confederate statues. Do you realize they betrayed the US?? They are traitors who fought to the death to keep slavery. Then when they lost they implemented racist laws to keep the now free slaves from having the same opportunities as them. 

I get your point in regards to Confederates fighting for slavery, but betraying the U.S. isn't bad in all cases. Depending on how far BLM goes, it could betray the U.S.. And the colonists betrayed Britain. Please know I'm not siding with the Confederates in this case at all though. 

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

18 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

But the point is that it's ok to criticise black people sometimes, and it shouldn't matter if they're a celebrity or not. And I'm done arguing with you as you won't listen to reason. I could easily apply that final sentence to you as well.

Nobody is saying you can't criticise black people. Human beings make mistakes, and yeah, calling people out on it its fine regardless of skin colour. Its just that when you are criticising people for being black, and thats the only reason why you are criticising them, then thats when it becomes racist. In the case of Megan Markle, the British media have definitely been racist towards her and so has the general public. Its ironic because the people being racist don't realise the Queen is part German. 

But bringing this back to the topic, its also fine to criticise white people and call out racism. What Churchill did was war crimes based off racism, caused a fammine in India because he didn't see them as equals, he despised gay people and chemically castrated Alan Turning under his regime, and did various other horrific acts. I don't think its fair that all of his racist and xenophobia, along with crimes of war, just get swept under the carpet because of his role in WWII. Its also disturbing that people glamourise him and idolise him, when he was literally an evil person. The statue being defaced has opened up conversations, which have been needed. I don't think we should have statues of figures that represent hate and racism, and if people are worried about history, then it will be already in the history books. We don't need statues. 

[Morphine Prince 109,656]

5 minutes ago, justhislife said:

You were taught about things other than the U.S., Japan, and Germany during WW2??

I get your point in regards to Confederates fighting for slavery, but betraying the U.S. isn't bad in all cases. Depending on how far BLM goes, it could betray the U.S.. And the colonists betrayed Britain. Please know I'm not siding with the Confederates in this case at all though. 

- Yes, we were taught about other things 

- I know but that’s why I specified that over slavery is why they went against the union 

[AsleepOnTheCeiling 6,965]

6 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said:

- Yes, we were taught about other things 

- I know but that’s why I specified that over slavery is why they went against the union 

I was acting shocked because I was only taught about those 3 in my APUSH class. The curriculum for colonization, western expansion, and slavery were more accurate but more recent events are pretty ignorantly taught in my experience.

Okay, you weren't too specific so I just wanted to chat. Absolutely no hostility meant

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

1 hour ago, xoxo Craig said:

Nobody is saying you can't criticise black people. Human beings make mistakes, and yeah, calling people out on it its fine regardless of skin colour. Its just that when you are criticising people for being black, and thats the only reason why you are criticising them, then thats when it becomes racist. In the case of Megan Markle, the British media have definitely been racist towards her and so has the general public. Its ironic because the people being racist don't realise the Queen is part German. 

But bringing this back to the topic, its also fine to criticise white people and call out racism. What Churchill did was war crimes based off racism, caused a fammine in India because he didn't see them as equals, he despised gay people and chemically castrated Alan Turning under his regime, and did various other horrific acts. I don't think its fair that all of his racist and xenophobia, along with crimes of war, just get swept under the carpet because of his role in WWII. Its also disturbing that people glamourise him and idolise him, when he was literally an evil person. The statue being defaced has opened up conversations, which have been needed. I don't think we should have statues of figures that represent hate and racism, and if people are worried about history, then it will be already in the history books. We don't need statues. 

And I've never criticised anyone for being black. In case that's what you were suggesting.

And I really don't care what happens to the statues. I just don't think the public should be pulling them down in acts of vandalism. That shouldn't be an unreasonable viewpoint.

[elijahfan 27,484]

23 hours ago, gag said:

Is this event not teaching people? You can see from this very thread, and your own comment, that people were unaware of how brutal Churchill's oppression against Indian people was. Defacing the statue has effectively prompted more conversations about history than the 60 years that the statue has been up.

Ok, but let's fast forward to a future where all traces of Churchill have been erased: how can future generations learn from past mistakes if they have no idea who Churchill was? There's just something that isn't quite right here. Maybe we need to see those statues everyday to remind us where we come from and where we shouldn't ever go back to. History is a cycle: if you forget or erase your past, you're bound to repeat it. Defacing statues might be satisfying right now, but in the long run, I'm not sure this is the right method: how can you own up your past if there's nothing to remind you of it?

[Harry 26,836]

12 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I've been over this and over this. That was a one-off emotional moment that was literally years ago now. And you misinterpreted what I meant. I'm sorry if I offended you but that wasn't my intention, I was trying to raise a valid concern with our dynamic that was getting to me that I wondered was based in gay misogyny. I wouldn't say that now. And I never called you any slurs or anything. I've still got the messages to prove that (found them, there's still there). I was angry and upset and I let my emotions get the better of me. I've grown from that. Yet you still hold me to it all these years later. But you've never apologised to me once for all the things you've said publicly (not even private) about me numerous times, smearing my reputation on this forum, knowing that people will just see what you say and believe it. Calling someone racist without proof is a serious accusation and you don't seem to understand the weight of that. I don't think you'll ever truly comprehend or care how much you actions have upset me.

Thank you for admitting openly that you used my sexuality to put me down in a moment of anger.

I don’t understand the weight? I don’t think you understand the weight of your racially charged comments. The evidence is literally in your posts. You’ve had so many people on here tell you that but you still refuse to reflect inwards on it. Racism is not as simple as “I don’t like people of colour” or “I think people of colour are lesser than me”. You really need to educate yourself. Now is the time.

1 hour ago, elijahfan said:

Ok, but let's fast forward to a future where all traces of Churchill have been erased: how can future generations learn from past mistakes if they have no idea who Churchill was? There's just something that isn't quite right here. Maybe we need to see those statues everyday to remind us where we come from and where we shouldn't ever go back to. History is a cycle: if you forget or erase your past, you're bound to repeat it. Defacing statues might be satisfying right now, but in the long run, I'm not sure this is the right method: how can you own up your past if there's nothing to remind you of it?

I mean that sentiment doesn’t really apply here. Nobody’s argument is erase these people from history, because that’s... impossible. Statues are a celebration of individuals. We still have textbooks, museums, the internet... If we want to remind ourselves of our history then our British education system needs to give a balanced and unbiased teaching of these things - I’m pretty sure most people in the UK still don’t know about the extent of Churchill’s racism. That’s the point. Having his statue up while it’s engrained in the country to glorify him at all costs (as has been seen in this thread) is a problem. So much bigger than just taking down a statue.

[elijahfan 27,484]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

I mean that sentiment doesn’t really apply here. Nobody’s argument is erase these people from history, because that’s... impossible. Statues are a celebration of individuals. We still have textbooks, museums, the internet... If we want to remind ourselves of our history then our British education system needs to give a balanced and unbiased teaching of these things - I’m pretty sure most people in the UK still don’t know about the extent of Churchill’s racism. That’s the point. Having his statue up while it’s engrained in the country to glorify him at all costs (as has been seen in this thread) is a problem. So much bigger than just taking down a statue.

Then why can't they add, like, plaques explaining why those statues were erected in the first place? It does say something about our society and how far we've come. We should be able to watch our shameful past in the eye, and not hide it in history books like hiding dust under a rug (I mean, who even reads history books these days?).