garnite 8 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 "israel" isn't a living thing. it doesn't "have" anything and cannot possibly own lands. it wasn't a state until it began occupying palestine and that's a fact. i'm not saying there was no such construct in the distant past, but prior to last century at that time there did not exist a thing called israel. and then it did exist when it began occupying that territory. and it is still occupation even if such a thing existed 2000 years ago because at some point it ceased to exist. it's not a hard point to get. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolev 867 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 "israel" isn't a living thing. it doesn't "have" anything and cannot possibly own lands. it wasn't a state until it began occupying palestine and that's a fact. i'm not saying there was no such construct in the distant past, but prior to last century at that time there did not exist a thing called israel. and then it did exist when it began occupying that territory. and it is still occupation even if such a thing existed 2000 years ago because at some point it ceased to exist. it's not a hard point to get. How could Israel occupy something that never existed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garnite 8 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 How could Israel occupy something that never existed? by establishing itself onto a territory against the wishes of the people who actually lived there in present day at that time. if whatever "never existed" was not there before israel was established in the 20th century then you cannot claim israel has any more claim to it than palestine. and if you don't claim that yet support the establishment of states on top of places which bear as much resemblance to a state that is in their power to bear no matter the detriment to those who presently inhabit it then i think your stance speaks for itself as to why it is being condemned on the scale that it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolev 867 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 by establishing itself onto a territory against the wishes of the people who actually lived there in present day at that time. if whatever "never existed" was not there before israel was established in the 20th century then you cannot claim israel has any more claim to it than palestine. and if you don't claim that yet support the establishment of states on top of places which bear as much resemblance to a state that is in their power to bear no matter the detriment to those who presently inhabit it then i think your stance speaks for itself as to why it is being condemned on the scale that it is. Jews lived in Israel since BCE. Talking modern times, even after they became the majority in Israel again, they still accepted the idea of 2 states living side by side. I sure can as Israel did exist years ago while "Palestine" never happend. Jews always accepted Arabs as equal citizens in their country and also accepted the idea of a Palestinian country besides theirs. The only thing here that speaks for itself is the currect situation of the so called Palestinians and their "state". And it will continue to be their status as long as they will keep fighting Israel in order to destroy it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garnite 8 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Jews lived in Israel since BCE. Talking modern times, even after they became the majority in Israel again, they still accepted the idea of 2 states living side by side. I sure can as Israel did exist years ago while "Palestine" never happend. Jews always accepted Arabs as equal citizens in their country and also accepted the idea of a Palestinian country besides theirs. The only thing here that speaks for itself is the currect situation of the so called Palestinians and their "state". And it will continue to be their status as long as they will keep fighting Israel in order to destroy it. but it doesn't matter if they lived there at one point in the past. you can't seriously think that your distant ancestors' homelands grant you any modern territorial rights. it's ludicrous and you know it. and how you know for sure YOUR (and if you do know that for a fact, anyone else living in israel's) ancestors came from there for certain i have no clue, because last time i checked judaism is religion that one can convert to and according to one member here, someone with ZERO semitic, arab or jewish blood, has a right to return to israel if they convert! more right than someone who was actually born there, and who as far as they know their ancestors were all born there too. it's laughable. you always speak with what israel wants and what israel is ok with as if their opinion is the only one that could possibly matter. but it isn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolev 867 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 but it doesn't matter if they lived there at one point in the past. you can't seriously think that your distant ancestors' homelands grant you any modern territorial rights. it's ludicrous and you know it. and how you know for sure YOUR (and if you do know that for a fact, anyone else living in israel's) ancestors came from there for certain i have no clue, because last time i checked judaism is religion that one can convert to and according to one member here, someone with ZERO semitic, arab or jewish blood, has a right to return to israel if they convert! more right than someone who was actually born there, and who as far as they know their ancestors were all born there too. it's laughable. you always speak with what israel wants and what israel is ok with as if their opinion is the only one that could possibly matter. but it isn't. I sure can, and I don't find any point in discussing it right now as Israel is not going to suddenly disappear. Jews deserved to establish a state as every other nation has, and what's more natural than their historical home? You should really educate yourself about Judaism first. It was never friendly for converts and never encouraged people to do so. Actually, The exact opposite happend when Muslims & Chrisitinas forced millions of Jews to convert throughout history. Israel sees itself as the Jewish state, therefore Jews has the right to immigrate to Israel and to become citizens. By the way, Israel holds a visa-policy (for all people) similiar to many other nations. There's nothing laughable about it, surely not compared to Shraia-law countries or countries where Jews and Christians are prohibited. I'll speak about Israel's opinion because it is the right one. One side is ready to live in peace while the other wants him dead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garnite 8 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I sure can, and I don't find any point in discussing it right now as Israel is not going to suddenly disappear. Jews deserved to establish a state as every other nation has, and what's more natural than their historical home? You should really educate yourself about Judaism first. It was never friendly for converts and never encouraged people to do so. Actually, The exact opposite happend when Muslims & Chrisitinas forced millions of Jews to convert throughout history. Israel sees itself as the Jewish state, therefore Jews has the right to immigrate to Israel and to become citizens. By the way, Israel holds a visa-policy (for all people) similiar to many other nations. There's nothing laughable about it, surely not compared to Shraia-law countries or countries where Jews and Christians are prohibited. I'll speak about Israel's opinion because it is the right one. One side is ready to live in peace while the other wants him dead. we should just start carving up the world map into places which are the origins of religions and put everyone who belongs to said religion into those new countries, no matter what kind of inequality or injustice that creates for the people who actually live there right now and no matter if those people disagree? by what right? pure selfishness and nothing more. i don't care what any religious group did in the past. if you think i am biased against jews and in favour of muslims or christianity you're dead wrong. i'm an atheist who has no sympathy for any group who identifies itself based on a religion or a god. i think religion is a bad thing, all religions, and i do think some religions are worse than others. but in general they all invent a form of tribalism that results in all the arguments you are making to support a jewish state. even if you are not religious you are still basing it on religiously motivated tribal ideas which don't help anyone and cause animosity between people. the idea is nonsensical in the first place. look at how good it has worked out for muslims, who are born and bred in places like britain for generations but end up fighting for IS because of this idea of belonging to a larger community based on religion and prioritising them over any other. it's not a good thing. i'm from a country that considers itself a state based on religion too created in the 20th century so i know exactly what you are talking about when you talk about jewish states and it's a disgusting thing. there should be no such thing as a jewish state. i don't think israel should be destroyed and i don't think everyone who lives there should be repatriated. but the exclusivity will never breed peace, and it's too late to establish yourself somewhere and then force the people there to compromise with two states. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolev 867 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 we should just start carving up the world map into places which are the origins of religions and put everyone who belongs to said religion into those new countries, no matter what kind of inequality or injustice that creates for the people who actually live there right now and no matter if those people disagree? by what right? pure selfishness and nothing more. i don't care what any religious group did in the past. if you think i am biased against jews and in favour of muslims or christianity you're dead wrong. i'm an atheist who has no sympathy for any group who identifies itself based on a religion or a god. i think religion is a bad thing, all religions, and i do think some religions are worse than others. but in general they all invent a form of tribalism that results in all the arguments you are making to support a jewish state. even if you are not religious you are still basing it on religiously motivated tribal ideas which don't help anyone and cause animosity between people. the idea is nonsensical in the first place. look at how good it has worked out for muslims, who are born and bred in places like britain for generations but end up fighting for IS because of this idea of belonging to a larger community based on religion and prioritising them over any other. it's not a good thing. i'm from a country that considers itself a state based on religion too created in the 20th century so i know exactly what you are talking about when you talk about jewish states and it's a disgusting thing. there should be no such thing as a jewish state. i don't think israel should be destroyed and i don't think everyone who lives there should be repatriated. but the exclusivity will never breed peace, and it's too late to establish yourself somewhere and then force the people there to compromise with two states. Your'e having a mistake by referring it as a religious issue. Judaism is both nation and religion. What kind of inequality or injustice could ever happen if the Palestinians only accepted the 2 states idea at first? and what exclusivity are you talking about? Israeli citizens are equal no matter what religion they are coming from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garnite 8 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Your'e having a mistake by referring it as a religious issue. Judaism is both nation and religion. What kind of inequality or injustice could ever happen if the Palestinians only accepted the 2 states idea at first? and what exclusivity are you talking about? Israeli citizens are equal no matter what religion they are coming from. is islam a nation too? and christianity? what makes judaism a nation if those are not? if you take out the religion from judaism what do you have? and someone with no jewish ancestry who converts to judaism age 20 - take out the religion and what do they have to do with a jewish nation? nothing if you ask me. and even if they all are considered nations, i would still oppose them because i think nations that require religion to define them are crackpot ideas that are destructive for humanity. hello islamic state. what kind of inequality or injustice could ever happen if every country just decided to establish itself in a territory and THEN say "hey let's have two states"? well what is happening to palestine right now, including the reaction by their government (right or wrong) to this other state. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolev 867 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 is islam a nation too? and christianity? what makes judaism a nation if those are not? if you take out the religion from judaism what do you have? and someone with no jewish ancestry who converts to judaism age 20 - take out the religion and what do they have to do with a jewish nation? nothing if you ask me. and even if they all are considered nations, i would still oppose them because i think nations that require religion to define them are crackpot ideas that are destructive for humanity. hello islamic state. what kind of inequality or injustice could ever happen if every country just decided to establish itself in a territory and THEN say "hey let's have two states"? well what is happening to palestine right now, including the reaction by their government (right or wrong) to this other state. Its small-sized population comapred to the 2 others, its centrism in one and only place, Israel and it being much more older than both Christianity and Islam created a whole cult that those 2 doesn't have. Ridiculous comparison. Nothing of the above would have happend if the Palestinians accepted the partition plan at first. Nothing of what is happening right now. That's the whole point. If they'd establish their own state back then side by side with Israel they wouldn't have to fight for it now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garnite 8 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Its small-sized population comapred to the 2 others, its centrism in one and only place, Israel and it being much more older than both Christianity and Islam created a whole cult that those 2 doesn't have. Ridiculous comparison. Nothing of the above would have happend if the Palestinians accepted the partition plan at first. Nothing of what is happening right now. That's the whole point. If they'd establish their own state back then side by side with Israel they wouldn't have to fight for it now. but i don't see what you're saying. what has size and age got to do with it? it's easier to create a fixed concept of a nation because of the small size and because of biblical or ancestral ties to a certain area (which cannot possibly apply any more because of the concept of conversion) - so it deserves one? still sounds totally fictional and bogus and not useful to me. that's not an argument at all. that doesn't explain to me at all any more how it is a nation than any other kind of people who have some common thread. listen, if you can convince me the creation of israel was entirely legitimate and their quarrel with the palestinians is not their fault at all then i'll be the biggest supporter of israel you know. but no one seems to have any arguments that actually hold their own. but why did they have to accept it? because of colonialism and threats? they have no choice but to accept it. so how can you blame them? no matter what they do it's israel's way or the highway but no credible reason to say so except "accept something you are not actually obligated to accept or things are going to be much worse for you". threats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lego 44,165 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 So Dolev, are you gonna ignore the fact that you got caught up in a lie? Well, they SHOULD. Because they ARE the ones who killed and injured all those people, and who bombed Gaza's power plant. Oh, and also wasn't Israel giving electricity and medical services to Gaza for free? I remember so many of you here were bragging about it all day. Were we? I don't think so. http://gagadaily.com/index.php/topic/111098-israel-palestine-conflict-discussion-thread/?p=5377641 FreePalestine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lego 44,165 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Are you kidding with this coin? Did anyone deny here existence of the Jews in that area? No. But you were always in minority, and this does not prove that it's ''your own'' land nor that what you are doing is not an occupation. It's 21st century, you know? Is this your way of justifying Israel's recent land grab of almost 1,000 acres from West Bank? Destroying 5 Palestinian villages for more illegal settlers? http://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/palestinian-settlement-abduction.html http://time.com/3244667/israel-claims-almost-1000-acres-of-west-bank-for-new-settlement/ http://online.wsj.com/articles/land-move-by-israel-draws-criticism-1409610335 http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-considers-action-against-israel-after-announcement-west-bank-land-grab-1893441846 Even your ally USA doesn't seem happy about it. FreePalestine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lego 44,165 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 "Exclusive: Israel's Video Justifying Destruction of a Gaza Hospital Was From 2009" The video clip showing apparent firing from an annex to the hospital was actually shot during Israel's 2008-09 "Operation Cast Lead," and the audio clip accompanying it was from an incident unrelated to Al Wafa. (Screengrab: The Times of Israel) .... The IDF real reason for the destruction of Al Wafa hospital appears to be related to the determination to raise the cost to the civilian population of Gaza for Palestinian resistance, in line with the approach represented by its "Dahiya doctrine," named after the Beirut suburb dominated by Hezbollah, much of which the Israeli Air Force reduced to rubble in the 2006 war. That strategy, recognized as a violation of the international laws of war, was pursued most obviously in the complete destruction of every house in several square blocks in three separate areas of the Shujaiya district of Gaza City July 19-20. But it was also evident in IDF attacks on Al Wafa and in the series of mortar and artillery attacks on six different UN shelters from July 21 though August 3. Those attacks killed a total of 47 civilians and wounded 341, according to a survey of the incidents by The Guardian. In none of the six cases where UN shelters were hit by IDF mortar shells was the military able to offer a plausible explanation, and in three cases, it offered no explanation whatever. read all http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25999-israels-video-justifying-destruction-of-a-hospital-was-from-2009 FreePalestine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melech 9,900 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I hope everything cools down and Hamas dusappears Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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