giskardsb 12,565 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 What do you make of Gaga's comment that women shouldn't tell men what to do in a relationship? a good relationship consists of respect among equals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Angel 128 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 If she refers to herself as one, then yes she is a Feminist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emvee 8,369 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The concepts of feminism haven't been "mainstream" until just recently. Back when Gaga denied being a feminist, it was still a hazy subject and had negative connotations. There was no such thing as tumblr and she probably didn't learn much about it in school (considering she went to catholic school and dropped out of college). I probably wouldn't have fully admitted to being a feminist in 2008, so I don't blame her either. I actually think it's quite unfair that her fans are still bringing up those statements from 09. They're irrelevant. People grow and change their minds. Stop bringing up that old-ass interview. She has since then changed her response to that question. And although she still says some things that are questionable, I get the gist of what she's saying. She, personally, likes it when a man takes control and that is okay. That IS feminism. Each individual has the right and freedom to express themselves in whichever way they want... submitting to her man is how she chooses to express herself s-xually. a good relationship consists of respect among equals. THAT is what I think she meant with that statement. The same sentiment is expressed in Gypsy, which we all know is about not wanting to change the person you're with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whispering 18,865 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 What do you make of Gaga's comment that women shouldn't tell men what to do in a relationship? A woman shouldn't tell a man what to do, and the man shouldn't tell a woman what to do in a relationship. Same thing with same s-x relationships- one shouldn't be telling the other what to do. There should be respect and equality in all relationships. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Wonka 4 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 a good relationship consists of respect among equals. THAT is what I think she meant with that statement. The same sentiment is expressed in Gypsy, which we all know is about not wanting to change the person you're with. A woman shouldn't tell a man what to do, and the man shouldn't tell a woman what to do in a relationship. Same thing with same s-x relationships- one shouldn't be telling the other what to do. There should be respect and equality in all relationships. Why was it specifically directed at "female listeners" and not listeners in general? Yes, I agree. Relationships should be equal. But Gaga's comment was specifically directed at women. It was not "don't tell your partner what to do", it was "women shouldn't tell men what to do". You can't write off the gender-specific address of the comment. So let's try this again. Why did Gaga say "It’s not good for relationships to tell men what to do… female listeners who are out there"? Why was she directing this sentiment at women? What does it mean in context of her conflicting statements about feminism? If she refers to herself as one, then yes she is a Feminist. She has said she isn't, she's said she is, she's made feminist remarks, and now she just stated that it's not good for women to tell men what to do in relationships... So it's a complicated subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emvee 8,369 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Why was it specifically directed at "female listeners" and not listeners in general? Yes, I agree. Relationships should be equal. But Gaga's comment was specifically directed at women. It was not "don't tell your partner what to do", it was "women shouldn't tell men what to do". You can't write off the gender-specific address of the comment. So let's try this again. Why did Gaga say "It’s not good for relationships to tell men what to do… female listeners who are out there"? Why was she directing this sentiment at women? What does it mean in context of her conflicting statements about feminism? I think it's just a case of bad wording. I think it's also a case of you wanting to put more meaning in that statement than she probably intended. After all, the Intouch audience is mainly women. Why would she direct a message towards men, when she knew that vast majority of who would read it would be women? I mean, do you honestly believe Gaga would be so misogynistic as to suggest that it's only up to women to do that? I give her more credit than that. I know Gaga is not perfect. She definitely says things that are iffy sometimes, but I know she means well 100% of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Wonka 4 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 She has since then changed her response to that question. And although she still says some things that are questionable, I get the gist of what she's saying. She, personally, likes it when a man takes control and that is okay. That IS feminism. Each individual has the right and freedom to express themselves in whichever way they want... submitting to her man is how she chooses to express herself s-xually. I agree with you, but honestly, you're approaching this angrily. The article cites TWO old interviews. One where she denies being a feminist, and one from 2009 where she called herself a feminist. So no, it's not like they're dragging up old interviews for the sake of dragging them up, but rather to illustrate that she's always made conflicting statements about feminism. The reason this was brought up was because YES, it was assumed that she was a feminist, and then she made questionable remarks NOW. While she may enjoy being submissive in her relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that), the way she implies that relationships DEPEND on women being submissive and subservient is concerning and relevant and deserves to be questioned in light of previous statements. She wasn't JUST talking about her relationship. Albeit jokingly, she was offering relationship advice to women, telling them to not tell men what to do. Do you see the problem and the relevance now? I think it's just a case of bad wording. I think it's also a case of you wanting to put more meaning in that statement than she probably intended. After all, the Intouch audience is mainly, if not all, women. Why would she direct a message towards men, when she knew that vast majority of who would read it would be women? I mean, do you honestly believe Gaga would be so misogynistic as to suggest that it's only up to women to do that? I give her more credit than that. I know Gaga is not perfect. She definitely says things that are iffy sometimes, but I know she means well 100% of the time. Because it was a radio interview with straight, male hosts, not an inTouch interview. inTouch is just reporting on the interview, but they link the audio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whispering 18,865 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Why was it specifically directed at "female listeners" and not listeners in general? Yes, I agree. Relationships should be equal. But Gaga's comment was specifically directed at women. It was not "don't tell your partner what to do", it was "women shouldn't tell men what to do". You can't write off the gender-specific address of the comment. So let's try this again. Why did Gaga say "It’s not good for relationships to tell men what to do… female listeners who are out there"? Why was she directing this sentiment at women? What does it mean in context of her conflicting statements about feminism? She has said she isn't, she's said she is, she's made feminist remarks, and now she just stated that it's not good for women to tell men what to do in relationships... So it's a complicated subject. Because she is a woman, therefore she directed her comment to other women. Simple as that. Eh, people's thoughts and ideas change from their early to late twenties. As feminism has taken on a different definition, of sorts, over the past few years, Gaga has likely rethought the general concept and she identifies with the expanded definition now. Even if that version of feminism was out there several years ago, that doesn't mean she necessarily knew about it at that time. Things change, people grow up and change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emvee 8,369 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I agree with you, but honestly, you're approaching this angrily. The article cites TWO old interviews. One where she denies being a feminist, and one from 2009 where she called herself a feminist. So no, it's not like they're dragging up old interviews for the sake of dragging them up, but rather to illustrate that she's always made conflicting statements about feminism. The reason this was brought up was because YES, it was assumed that she was a feminist, and then she made questionable remarks NOW. While she may enjoy being submissive in her relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that), the way she implies that relationships DEPEND on women being submissive and subservient is concerning and relevant and deserves to be questioned in light of previous statements. She wasn't JUST talking about her relationship. Albeit jokingly, she was offering relationship advice to women, telling them to not tell men what to do. Do you see the problem and the relevance now? Because it was a radio interview with straight, male hosts, not an inTouch interview. inTouch is just reporting on the interview, but they link the audio. Oop, embarrassed. I hadn't even read the article or heard that sirius interview. I was too focused on the fact that fans/critics do bring up the 2009 interview a lot. And, yeah, of course she had subsequent interviews in 2009 which contradicted that first one. She probably saw the backlash she got for saying that and quickly reassessed her stance. As for the intouch/sirius radio interviews... like you said, she said it jokingly. I personally won't hold her accountable for something she said jokingly during a 58 second radio interview. All other appropriate platforms in which she has talked about feminism, post-2009, she has whole-heartedly advocated female empowerment. Unfortumately, they generally go unnoticed in favor of her more ~problematic~ statements. It's just much easier to believe the worst, I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Wonka 4 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Oop, embarrassed. I hadn't even read the article or heard that sirius interview. I was too focused on the fact that fans/critics do bring up the 2009 interview a lot. And, yeah, of course she had subsequent interviews in 2009 which contradicted that first one. She probably saw the backlash she got for saying that and quickly reassessed her stance. As for the intouch/sirius radio interviews... like you said, she said it jokingly. I personally won't hold her accountable for something she said jokingly during a 58 second radio interview. All other appropriate platforms in which she has talked about feminism, post-2009, she has whole-heartedly advocated female empowerment. I think that's really fair. She's just very confusing and is reluctant to be pinned down on this. She's made some of my favorite feminist remarks ever, but she refuses to call herself a feminist and occasionally makes strangely patriarchal comments. I definitely think she's a feminist, I just think the dynamic of her feminism is so interesting and impossible to pin down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emvee 8,369 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I think that's really fair. She's just very confusing and is reluctant to be pinned down on this. She's made some of my favorite feminist remarks ever, but she refuses to call herself a feminist and occasionally makes strangely patriarchal comments. I definitely think she's a feminist, I just think the dynamic of her feminism is so interesting and impossible to pin down. That is true. It leads me to believe that the people in her life simply don't reinforce these types of discussions in her life that much. Hell, I don't really have a comfortable grasp on the complexities of female/queer politics. I know that I am a feminist. I know that I support LGBT rights... but when I take a moment to reflect on myself, I KNOW that I fall under the category of a heteronormal, cis, gay male and that my perspective of the world has its limitations. I am comfortable with the role I have developed and I pressume Gaga is too. She is comfortable with the submissive role because it's what she has known all her life. Given her strong relationship with her father, a dominant male figure in her life brings comfort. She's traditional and that can cause a lot of discomfort and confusion for those who don't have such a traditional disposition. Where I think she needs to be a little more careful, though, is in her belief that that's some sort of intrinsic female need. (if that was at all a serious statement ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miley 5,006 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Yes she is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Wonka 4 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 That is true. It leads me to believe that the people in her life simply don't reinforce these types of discussions in her life that much. Hell, I don't really have a comfortable grasp on the complexities of female/queer politics. I know that I am a feminist. I know that I support LGBT rights... but when I take a moment to reflect on myself, I KNOW that I fall under the category of a heteronormal, cis, gay male and that my perspective of the world has its limitations. I am comfortable with the role I have developed and I pressume Gaga is too. She is comfortable with the submissive role because it's what she has known all her life. Given her strong relationship with her father, a dominant male figure in her life brings comfort. She's traditional and that can cause a lot of discomfort and confusion for those who don't have such a traditional disposition. Where I think she needs to be a little more careful, though, is in her belief that that's some sort of intrinsic female need. (if that was at all a serious statement ) No, you said it so well. :flutter: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celina 118 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I don't see contradiction, I see evolution. Her early comments ("I'm not a feminist, I love men!") were IMHO ignorant (sorry Gaga), but I think she's learned a lot since then. I don't think she'd ever say that now. But, I think what matters more than what she says, is what she does, and how she's perceived. Does anyone see Gaga as anything other than a strong (too strong, for some people) woman? Does anyone really believe that she lets anyone, including Taylor, tell her what to do, in any meaningful way? When you think of her generation of female pop stars, who's the last one you'd think of as a doormat? Isn't it Gaga? She pretty much embodies strength, independence, and freedom. I agree. It seems like she misunderstood feminism at that point. Not that there's anything wrong with ignorance as long as you're open to learning and growing, which Gaga clearly was. :) As for the recent quote, it seems to me like it was just a really poor choice of words. She would never mean to say that women should be doormats, but I can see why it would come across that way because of how she said it... And tbh I'm still not sure if she really "gets" it, only because she doesn't speak much about it, but I trust that she keeps an open mind and (obviously) has no problems with being a strong woman. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlet Witch 1,632 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Yes, and in a good way. She doesn't mind being the woman on the bottom because she knows she's in charge. Scheisse (don't flame me for the b) and G.U.Y. says it all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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