Bretman Rock on beauty community

[Stef666 4,489]

3 minutes ago, Reality said:

I can't with y'all getting offended about the "white people" comment. 

Bretman obviously said it in a jovial manner, like he does with 90% of the things he says. 

But also, why choose t oget offended over generalizing white people when they've done much worse things over the years. Like, forget the systemic racism POC face on a daily basis...but no...when you offend white people, it's suddenly "let's not make this about race". 

Also, queer people literally have the equivalent when it comes to straight people. A lot of queer people make generalized jokes towards straight people, yet y'all laugh about it all the time. What's next? Are y'all going to get offended on behalf of straight people?

We're not talking about jokes. Bretman is fine, I get what he said. But lets not pretend LGBT+ or POC can't do no wrong because of the oppression they faced and are facing still. All kinds of people can be good and all kinds of people can be bad. Also, no one is forgetting or excusing the racism and homophobia of white people. I'm just saying it's gonna turn toxic sooner or later just like everything does to the point where we can't joke about straight or white people.

[Stef666 4,489]

4 minutes ago, Future Lovers said:

 

Reverse racism doesn’t exist but I’m gonna back out of this conversation before I say some things I regret later 

Out of your bubble and into the real world with you. Saying only white people can be racist is in itself racist.

[moonsago 6,578]

11 minutes ago, Future Lovers said:

I answered that way because that is the point of the whole argument. 

You are pointing examples of beauty companies trying to promote diversity in the heyday of the industry. That would be a great example of a time where this space was more open to all kinds, or at the very least making an effort to diversify (the success of that is still debatable, but it was effort). 

We’re not in that period anymore. Today, the beauty industry is more online focused than ever and as such these beauty gurus and influencers have more power and influence in the space than ever. It is here that non-white artists are starting to get pushed out. 

With the emphasis now turning here, you are seeing that space being controlled by white creators. Yes, non-white creators have a platform but the existence of one doesn’t mean that there is anything in the way of equality for them. Their platforms will continue to come second to the movements that the Tatis and James Charles’ of the world are making. These creators will continue to be successful and have a following despite their numerous controversies and scandals whereas if a creator of color did the same things their time in that industry would be over. 

Makeup companies can do all this outreach they like but as long as they continue to partner with and promote the white creators and their brands disproportionately to the brands of POC artists then it is counterproductive. There is a very clear inequality between how white beauty influencers and non-white beauty influencers are treated by companies and audiences, and that is a result of an invasion of the space by privileged people with a platform content to benefit and do nothing to promote fairness and equality within the space. 

That is what they’re is referring to. Their just saying it in a very clickbaity and unproductive manner. 

Lmao, I love how you’re now backtracking. At first it was before the period of time that we were talking about that the so called ‘diverse community’ existed that then white people started to enter & dominate and now that I asked you to tell me when that was exactly, because I told you how it was already diverse during the time the people you claimed at first invaded the space ( tati james jeffree ), you tell me that actually yes, I am pointing to the time when it was diverse and that’s what you meant. Ok so you’re proving my point then, that it was already diverse and non white creators were being promoted. Good. However, now you tell me how TODAY, when we are LITERALLY more diverse in the fields of beauty, fashion, media, art than ever, the beauty community doesn’t promote non white creators... gurl, I know you don’t believe that. I get it, you wanted to be the good white person defending everything non white related, I was there, TRUST me, I believed everything I was told because I wanted to be a good person too, most of us do, but at some point you gotta stop and realize that twitter logic and reality doesn’t match. Not when you compare the facts. Generalizations can only take you so far in the western modern world. At some point you have to start talking about individual experiences. Again, I NEVER said racism can’t exist in the beauty industry or that some creators didn’t face it, I am more than sure that they did, but to say that this is the GENERAL experience of the non white creators is just pure ignorance. That’s not the real world, I’m sorry. I think we should end it here, I really wish you well, I can tell that you are very kind, and no I am not being ironic in case you don’t want to believe me. 

[VTV 12,769]

why do we pay attention to these kind of people

[Reality 72,570]

On 2/24/2023 at 6:50 PM, Stef666 said:

We're not talking about jokes. Bretman is fine, I get what he said. But lets not pretend LGBT+ or POC can't do no wrong because of the oppression they faced and are facing still. All kinds of people can be good and all kinds of people can be bad. Also, no one is forgetting or excusing the racism and homophobia of white people. I'm just saying it's gonna turn toxic sooner or later just like everything does to the point where we can't joke about straight or white people.

Well, but we are talking about jokes because Bretman's joke is the one that started this whole conversation.

I'm not saying that LGBTQ+ people or POC can't do/say bad things, but I truly don't think that making jokes about white people or straight people is all that serious. Here's the thing: the reason why it's problematic to make jokes about POC or queer people is because of the long-standing history of oppression and discrimination against said people. If we lived in a world where racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. didn't exist, then sure, we could just make fun of other people and laugh it off. But the truth of the matter is that we don't live in that kind of world.

It's also one thing for a white person to make fun of POC or a straight cisgender person to make fun of queer people, and POC to make fun of white people or a queer person to make fun of straight people. The latter is more acceptable because, again, of the horrible history POC & queer people have experienced. White and straight cisgender people making fun of marginalized groups isn't funny because they've historically been in positions of power to put down those people. When marginalized groups make fun of white, straight cisgender people, we do it because of how ridiculous it is. The white cisgender man has never faced oppression because of who they inherently are, so it's ridiculous and audacious to make fun of them because they've never had to experience what we've had to go through. It's like, "Look at how ridiclous this joke is about white people or straight people because they've never known what it's like to be 'othered' because of their skin color or sexual orientation/gender identity".

[moonsago 6,578]

15 minutes ago, Reality said:

Well, but we are talking about jokes because Bretman's joke is the one that started this whole conversation.

I'm not saying that LGBTQ+ people or POC can't do/say bad things, but I truly don't think that making jokes about white people or straight people is all that serious. Here's the thing: the reason why it's problematic to make jokes about POC or queer people is because of the long-standing history of oppression and discrimination against said people. If we lived in a world where racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. didn't exist, then sure, we could just make fun of other people and laugh it off. But the truth of the matter is that we don't live in that kind of world.

It's also one thing for a white person to make fun of POC or a straight cisgender person to make fun of queer people, and POC to make fun of white people or a queer person to make fun of straight people. The latter is more acceptable because, again, of the horrible history POC & queer people have experienced. White and straight cisgender people making fun of marginalized groups isn't funny because they've historically been in positions of power to put down those people. When marginalized groups make fun of white, straight cisgender people, we do it because it's of how ridiculous it is. The white cisgender man has never faced oppression because of who they inherently are, so it's ridiculous and audacious to make fun of them because they've never had to experience what we've had to go through. It's like, "Look at how ridiclous this joke is about white people or straight people because they've never known what it's like to be 'othered' because of their skin color or sexual orientation/gender identity".

While I absolutely see the point that you are trying to make, I have to disagree. This is not about jokes anymore, maybe a few years ago it was funny to make fun of men, white people, etc, but at this point stereotypes are being formed, generalizations are being made and you also have people that say these things, mean it, and get away with it because we still believe that this can’t become problematic, which it can and it will down the line. If we truly want equality and mutual respect then we need to hold one another at the same standard. Also, just because discriminatory language like this was normalized once by a group of people, why does it have to now be normalized by the other groups of people and used against the generation of people that didn’t engage in such bahaviour? It’s not okay, we are prepetuating a toxic cycle. I get that it seems so unrealistic right now to some that this could ever become a real problem but it’s slowly starting to, some of us are just catching onto it sooner. 

[Reality 72,570]

2 minutes ago, moonsago said:

While I absolutely see the point that you are trying to make, I have to disagree. This is not about jokes anymore, maybe a few years ago it was funny to make fun of men, white people, etc, but at this point stereotypes are being formed, generalizations are being made and you also have people that say these things, mean it, and get away with it because we still believe that this can’t become problematic, which it can and it will down the line. If we truly want equality and mutual respect then we need to hold one another at the same standard. Also, just because discriminatory language like this was normalized once by a group of people, why does it have to now be normalized by the other groups of people and used against the generation of people that didn’t engage in such bahaviour? It’s not okay, we are prepetuating a toxic cycle. I get that it seems so unrealistic right now to some that this could ever become a real problem but it’s slowly starting to, some of us are just catching onto it sooner. 

If there are people out there who seriously mean harm and negativity towards white people or straight people purely based on the fact that they're white or straight, then I obviously disagree with that. I think most people would understand that. I'm talking about the jokes and stuff like that because that's where this whole conversation stemmed from. 

I don't know, but it just feels weird to me when you try to defend white and/or straight cisgender people—also, I'm using "you" in the general sense—because the truth of the matter is that they don't need defending. I just see a difference between POC making fun of white people or POC even making fun of their own individual ethnicity vs. the other way around. Same thing with queer people making fun of straight people. 

Like, would you say that POC making fun of themselves is also problematic? Or queer people making fun of themselves is problematic? Would you say that also "perpetuates a toxic cycle" of "discriminatory language", even if it's coming from those within the same group? Because by that logic, it should. 

[BUtterfield 8 41,005]

No lies detected 

[Geish 28]

2 hours ago, moonsago said:

... black people built the beauty industry? .... how? Black people are not the first to create beauty brands, what are you even talking about. 

  you need to google madam cj walker 

[Chromatography 10,009]

2 hours ago, moonsago said:

... black people built the beauty industry? .... how? Black people are not the first to create beauty brands, what are you even talking about. 

in my opinion michelle phan built it

[moonsago 6,578]

27 minutes ago, Geish said:

  you need to google madam cj walker 

I know her, an absolut legend, however the conversation was more about the makeup side of the beauty industry as that’s the topic at hand. And even so, althought her contributions are huge to the haircare industry, they were targeted to black costumers not the general beauty industry ( like the use claimed ) and even so, there were other brands before hers created by white people that catered to black hair. That does not take away in any shape way or form her contribution ( especially when you take in account how influential her work became due the quality and genius marketing ),  my whole point was not that black beauty owners did not exist but that rather that the industry was not founded and created as that user claimed by black folks. Which is only logical considering the times, no? And when talking about makeup, some of the most notable first brands would be Max Factor ( which is also considered the father of modern makeup, he really created so much for the beauty scene and his techniques and style of makeup popularized in movies is what makeup nowadays is still largely based on, from normal makeup to drag makeup ) Elizabeth Arden, The Maybelline Company, etc. My point was more against the generalization that the user was trying to make and how unfactual it was. 

[Roughhouse Dandy 8,899]

The constant strawman arguments and nitpicking all because someone correctly pointed out who was messing things up 👀

It's giving very White Lives Matter and that isn't cute in the least. But what else should we expect here I guess 🤔 

[Cameltoe Chariot 14,489]

All these social media ”personalities” are f*cking boring, Bretman included 

[ALGAYDO 30,350]

Some white people wanna be oppressed so bad lmaooo it’s kinda sad 

[Future Lovers 6,552]

6 hours ago, Stef666 said:

Out of your bubble and into the real world with you. Saying only white people can be racist is in itself racist.

Racism against white people is white nationalist fiction. 

Racism is when your opportunities in life are hampered because you aren't white. Racism is when you visit a high end clothing store and security follows you as you browse. Racism is when the cops get called on your for having a barbeque in the park or selling lemonade on a street corner. Racism is when you get pulled over when you drive an expensive car because a cop is suspicious that you stole it. Racism is when a stranger asks your white partner if you need help because they're out with you. Racism is when someone says you kidnapped the children that you're babysitting because they're white and out and about with you. 

That is racism. 

Those are things a white person will never, ever, ever experience. No one's life is interrupted because they're white. 

You may very well face some prejudice for being white, but that cannot be racism because that prejudice does not prevent you from living your life, it doesn't get you arrested, it doesn't get you profiled, it doesn't do anything other than momentarily inconvenience you. You have the option to get away from it. That isn't racism, and don't pretend that it is.