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Canada's Provinces Refusing To Co-Operate With National Carbon Tax

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https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/saskatchewan-carbon-tax-challenge-heads-to-provincial-court-1.1213460

 

Saskatchewan is the lastest province to file a court challange on new legislation that forces a Federal Carbon Tax on Provinces that don't have their own Carbon Tax plan

 

The argument goes that the taxes are not fairly even nationally since some Provinces have more Carbon intensive industries than others yet the refunding to individuals will be the same everywhere (essentially meaning higher polluting provinces would subsidize tax refunds to less polluting ones) while Justin Trudeau Says it is constitutional since Climate change is a "National Concern"

 

Canada's Largest Province Ontario has vowed to fight tooth and nail against it at all costs

 

The Province of Alberta (holds 97% of Canada's Oil Reserves) originally supported the idea but now out of anger for failed pipeline construction has threatned to end their own Carbon Tax plan as well and refuse to co-operate with a Federal plan

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Economy

I seriously don't get what's going on in this country. This right after the shenanigans with British Columbia after they tried to block a federal pipeline they had no authority to block

 

Do different levels of Government not know their place? And why does the Federal Government never punish disobedience and let's it be?

 

I feel like the Federal Government doesn't wanna loose voters or seem like a dictator by forcing their authority on voters from each province and then end up ignoring infractions against authority

 

But then lack of National co-operation is what you get :saladga:

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Lord Temptation
58 minutes ago, Economy said:

I seriously don't get what's going on in this country. This right after the shenanigans with British Columbia after they tried to block a federal pipeline they had no authority to block

 

Do different levels of Government not know their place? And why does the Federal Government never punish disobedience and let's it be?

 

I feel like the Federal Government doesn't wanna loose voters or seem like a dictator by forcing their authority on voters from each province and then end up ignoring infractions against authority

 

But then lack of National co-operation is what you get :saladga:

Are there other ways Ottawa can punish the Provinces? In your opinion is the Capital being too arrogant/stupid/greedy or is it the other way round? 

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42 minutes ago, Lord Temptation said:

Are there other ways Ottawa can punish the Provinces? In your opinion is the Capital being too arrogant/stupid/greedy or is it the other way round? 

I don't think they are being greedy. Carbon taxes are a way to put price on Carbon and try to encourage change in consumer habbits

 

Also the Federal Government isn't keeping the money is collects from Provinces don't have their own Carbon tax... It's giving back all it collects in a form of a carbon tax refund. Although Saskatchewan claims it's unfair that the refund is divided equally but some Provinces will pay more than they get back if they pollute above National average due to their industries

 

Also I get why Alberta is upset... As a result of pressure from environmentalists and the Federal Government They put in many tough environmental regulations on the oil industry as well as a carbon tax to reduce ecological foot print and they expected that to reduce opposition to the Industry. They even put in an emmisions cap meaning when the Industry reaches that emmisions ceiling no new projects can be approved until emmisions come back below the limit

 

But after all those regulations that hurt Oil profitability opposition hasn't reduced and British Columbia even blocked a Federally approved pipeline so Alberta still can't expand its markets and customers and is forced to continue selling oil at big discounts

 

They feel that if all that economic cost still doesn't reduce opposition, then there's no reason for them to continue to punish their industry with carbon taxes so now they want out. Especially since Alberta is already the biggest net contributed to the equalization program which is mostly funded with their oil money

 

Ontario (my province) we would get back more in refunds than we'd contribute and our industries are not heavy polluters in general so I'm not sure why my Province is so dead set against it. 

 

Also Provinces can be witheld funding as punishment under law but the Government never exercises that option probably because it would anger voters in that province

 

 

 

 

 

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Lord Temptation
19 hours ago, Economy said:

I don't think they are being greedy. Carbon taxes are a way to put price on Carbon and try to encourage change in consumer habbits

 

Also the Federal Government isn't keeping the money is collects from Provinces don't have their own Carbon tax... It's giving back all it collects in a form of a carbon tax refund. Although Saskatchewan claims it's unfair that the refund is divided equally but some Provinces will pay more than they get back if they pollute above National average due to their industries

 

Also I get why Alberta is upset... As a result of pressure from environmentalists and the Federal Government They put in many tough environmental regulations on the oil industry as well as a carbon tax to reduce ecological foot print and they expected that to reduce opposition to the Industry. They even put in an emmisions cap meaning when the Industry reaches that emmisions ceiling no new projects can be approved until emmisions come back below the limit

 

But after all those regulations that hurt Oil profitability opposition hasn't reduced and British Columbia even blocked a Federally approved pipeline so Alberta still can't expand its markets and customers and is forced to continue selling oil at big discounts

 

They feel that if all that economic cost still doesn't reduce opposition, then there's no reason for them to continue to punish their industry with carbon taxes so now they want out. Especially since Alberta is already the biggest net contributed to the equalization program which is mostly funded with their oil money

 

Ontario (my province) we would get back more in refunds than we'd contribute and our industries are not heavy polluters in general so I'm not sure why my Province is so dead set against it. 

 

Also Provinces can be witheld funding as punishment under law but the Government never exercises that option probably because it would anger voters in that province

 

 

 

 

 

I had to read your post twice to make sense of the complexity of the situation :saladga:. I still don’t think I understand everything :messga: but my conclusion is that each province has it’s own reasons, and that the Federal government is way over it’s head :wtfga:

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3 hours ago, Lord Temptation said:

I had to read your post twice to make sense of the complexity of the situation :saladga:. I still don’t think I understand everything :messga: but my conclusion is that each province has it’s own reasons, and that the Federal government is way over it’s head :wtfga:

They do have their reasons... But the federal carbon tax is not illegal the way Saskatchewan is trying to suggest. I think this court situation is more political so that the Conservative government in Saskatchewan can at least show its people it's doing something but I don't believe they have a shot at winning

 

Their argument that it doesn't tax each region equally (because some Provinces industries pollute more than others) is a weak argument at best. You could say that about any tax or refund programs for that matter. Income taxes for example tax higher income earners more but it doesn't adjust for the higher cost of living in wealthier provinces where people make more... So what's the difference with the carbon tax?

 

Alberta's situation is a bit different. They have tones of oil, gas and other resources and end up sharing a lot of the wealth with the rest of the Nation thru federal taxes but then many other provinces attack their industry and British Columbia has even blocked their pipeline...

 

So their issue is deeper, they feel taken advantaged of because as the richest province the rest of the country has no issue taking their money but then hypocritically they have no problem trash talking and opposing the oil Industry

 

Quebec for example is a huge hypocrite. They receive $11 Billion annual in equalization payments (the biggest receiver) yet they are one of the biggest opposers to the Oil Sands which largely pays for their payments. They also blocked a huge pipeline that was supposed to go East just like British Columbia blocked a pipeline going west

 

Alberta's resources are landlocked and selling at discounts due to limited infrastructure to move them (forcing them to accept whatever price the few customers they can access pay them as they have no bargaining power)...

 

And they feel the rest of the country is at fault for putting them in that situation yet the poor provinces have no issue collecting checks payed by wealthier provinces like Alberta (the biggest net contributer)

 

If the thought the energy industry was so immoral, they should not accept the money that came from it either

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Lord Temptation
6 hours ago, Economy said:

They do have their reasons... But the federal carbon tax is not illegal the way Saskatchewan is trying to suggest. I think this court situation is more political so that the Conservative government in Saskatchewan can at least show its people it's doing something but I don't believe they have a shot at winning

 

Their argument that it doesn't tax each region equally (because some Provinces industries pollute more than others) is a weak argument at best. You could say that about any tax or refund programs for that matter. Income taxes for example tax higher income earners more but it doesn't adjust for the higher cost of living in wealthier provinces where people make more... So what's the difference with the carbon tax?

 

Alberta's situation is a bit different. They have tones of oil, gas and other resources and end up sharing a lot of the wealth with the rest of the Nation thru federal taxes but then many other provinces attack their industry and British Columbia has even blocked their pipeline...

 

So their issue is deeper, they feel taken advantaged of because as the richest province the rest of the country has no issue taking their money but then hypocritically they have no problem trash talking and opposing the oil Industry

 

Quebec for example is a huge hypocrite. They receive $11 Billion annual in equalization payments (the biggest receiver) yet they are one of the biggest opposers to the Oil Sands which largely pays for their payments. They also blocked a huge pipeline that was supposed to go East just like British Columbia blocked a pipeline going west

 

Alberta's resources are landlocked and selling at discounts due to limited infrastructure to move them (forcing them to accept whatever price the few customers they can access pay them as they have no bargaining power)...

 

And they feel the rest of the country is at fault for putting them in that situation yet the poor provinces have no issue collecting checks payed by wealthier provinces like Alberta (the biggest net contributer)

 

If the thought the energy industry was so immoral, they should not accept the money that came from it either

Let’s punish Quebec!!!! They can afford to lose a couple $B from the sound of things! I feel for Alberta. It’s literally stuck between a rock and a hard place. And Saskatchewan seems...like such a mysterious place :messga: Thanks for your insight as always :kara: 

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Economy
16 minutes ago, Lord Temptation said:

Let’s punish Quebec!!!! They can afford to lose a couple $B from the sound of things! I feel for Alberta. It’s literally stuck between a rock and a hard place. And Saskatchewan seems...like such a mysterious place :messga: Thanks for your insight as always :kara: 

Quebec has long had different political views than most of Canada in part because they have a different heritage (they have a French background while the rest of Canada was colonized mostly by British)

 

As for Saskatchewan, they are actually Extremely similar to Alberta. Both are resource based provinces, both are the countries most conservative provinces and have similar politics and both are neighbors

 

When Alberta threatned to block oil supplies to British Columbia to try to get then to stand down opposition Saskatchewan volunteered to participate and also shut off energy supplies

 

Saskatchewan is basically the same as Alberta only the resource reserves are not as vast and the population is much lower. They are basically a less relevant Alberta :emma:

 

Oh and both produce Gains like wheat as their second biggest exports after resources

 

 

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Lord Temptation
6 hours ago, Economy said:

Quebec has long had different political views than most of Canada in part because they have a different heritage (they have a French background while the rest of Canada was colonized mostly by British)

 

As for Saskatchewan, they are actually Extremely similar to Alberta. Both are resource based provinces, both are the countries most conservative provinces and have similar politics and both are neighbors

 

When Alberta threatned to block oil supplies to British Columbia to try to get then to stand down opposition Saskatchewan volunteered to participate and also shut off energy supplies

 

Saskatchewan is basically the same as Alberta only the resource reserves are not as vast and the population is much lower. They are basically a less relevant Alberta :emma:

 

Oh and both produce Gains like wheat as their second biggest exports after resources

 

 

Alberta and Saskatchewan sound like Western Australia, which is the huge entire western third of the continent, on the Indian Ocean. It has vast amounts of offshore natural gas and almost all Australian gold deposits. But the population is tiny (I think under 3 million) and they are generally conservative British, and recently, white African ex-landowners. Supposedly Perth is the richest city in Australia in terms of millionaires per capita. There is a sizeable minority there that want to leave the Commonwealth and become a separate country - because they claim, as Alberta and Saskatchewan - that their resources boom ends up lining the pockets of greedy Easterners. I have family in Perth but have never visited. People i know that hage been say it’s boring as hell but with the best city beaches so no thanks - our beaches in Sydney are already spectacular enough (we have more than 100 beaches within the metro and nobody knows anyone who has been to them all - many more beaches aren’t even named because they’re so remote). In my opinion i think Australia SHOULD decentralise and give States more rights. I hate all these petty tactics states/provinces play with the capital, it makes me depressed to think that this is what adults do when they can’t agree on anything...:messga:

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8 hours ago, Lord Temptation said:

Alberta and Saskatchewan sound like Western Australia, which is the huge entire western third of the continent, on the Indian Ocean. It has vast amounts of offshore natural gas and almost all Australian gold deposits. But the population is tiny (I think under 3 million) and they are generally conservative British, and recently, white African ex-landowners. Supposedly Perth is the richest city in Australia in terms of millionaires per capita. There is a sizeable minority there that want to leave the Commonwealth and become a separate country - because they claim, as Alberta and Saskatchewan - that their resources boom ends up lining the pockets of greedy Easterners. I have family in Perth but have never visited. People i know that hage been say it’s boring as hell but with the best city beaches so no thanks - our beaches in Sydney are already spectacular enough (we have more than 100 beaches within the metro and nobody knows anyone who has been to them all - many more beaches aren’t even named because they’re so remote). In my opinion i think Australia SHOULD decentralise and give States more rights. I hate all these petty tactics states/provinces play with the capital, it makes me depressed to think that this is what adults do when they can’t agree on anything...:messga:

Oh wow sounds very similar to the western prairies then

 

Alberta has around 4M people and Saskatchewan 1M to 2M range (I don't know the exact amount.) So proportionally to the rest of the country it's about the same as what u described. Both conservative and based on resources

 

Alberta has 97% of Canada's Oil, most of our Coal, a lot of natural Gas, and some precious metals

 

Saskatchewan has the most Oil after Alberta (a small fraction of the Oil Sands reach their territory to the east and they also have a few other deposits of regular oil), they have a lot of potash and a lot of Uranium

 

Alberta has also talked about seperation before as well for the same reason although it never got as serious as it has in Quebec. In Quebec last referendum 49% of people voted to leave Canada (talk about a close one) but in Alberta they did a big poll (no official referendum there) and only 25% of people wanted to leave Canada so then it wasn't talked about anymore politically

 

And about the beaches, it's one of the reasons I'm dying to visit Australia

 

Japan and Australia are my 2 top wish list tourist destinations but they both also have among the most expensive flights cuz it's so far away :cryga:

 

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Nikolai Barrow

I have not closely followed politics for a little bit now. But it's honestly hard for me to feel sorry for alberta and their big oil corperations. It's not always about profit. Carbon tax was a good step in the right direction after many years of doing nothing about the environment. Alberta often gets what it wants because it is so wealthy. Just my two cents

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Lord Temptation
1 hour ago, Economy said:

Oh wow sounds very similar to the western prairies then

 

Alberta has around 4M people and Saskatchewan 1M to 2M range (I don't know the exact amount.) So proportionally to the rest of the country it's about the same as what u described. Both conservative and based on resources

 

Alberta has 97% of Canada's Oil, most of our Coal, a lot of natural Gas, and some precious metals

 

Saskatchewan has the most Oil after Alberta (a small fraction of the Oil Sands reach their territory to the east and they also have a few other deposits of regular oil), they have a lot of potash and a lot of Uranium

 

Alberta has also talked about seperation before as well for the same reason although it never got as serious as it has in Quebec. In Quebec last referendum 49% of people voted to leave Canada (talk about a close one) but in Alberta they did a big poll (no official referendum there) and only 25% of people wanted to leave Canada so then it wasn't talked about anymore politically

 

And about the beaches, it's one of the reasons I'm dying to visit Australia

 

Japan and Australia are my 2 top wish list tourist destinations but they both also have among the most expensive flights cuz it's so far away :cryga:

 

Never been too keen on Japan but Canada just seems so intriguing, always. Especially after you described your cottage story in that lake just outside Toronto!!! :wub:I didn’t realise Quebec came so close to separating. Maybe it is inevitable? Wouldn’t that cut off Eastern Canada from the rest? If Canada were to break up I could see it becoming maybe 4-5 separate countries. I don’t think it’s impossible to speak of, all around the world people are sick of bureaucracy business class fliers making top-down decisions for millions. We are craving local decisions, local representatives and local solutions. The internet makes decentralisation very realisable. I don’t even think the US is that stable. Realistically it is about 20-25 countries rolled into one. 

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9 minutes ago, Nikolai Barrow said:

I have not closely followed politics for a little bit now. But it's honestly hard for me to feel sorry for alberta and their big oil corperations. It's not always about profit. Carbon tax was a good step in the right direction after many years of doing nothing about the environment. Alberta often gets what it wants because it is so wealthy. Just my two cents

I agree with needing to consider the environment...

 

But it's not just about carbon taxes. Alberta already put in a Carbon tax before the Federal Government made a National one, they created an emissions cap (meaning no new projects can be approved once that ceiling is hit) and came up with countless regulations to minimize damage on land

 

But there's a limit to how much punishment an industry can take. Having all these regulations and now a carbon tax and still forcing them to except big discounts for their oil makes it impossible for the industry to compete. 

 

Cenovus for example one of the largest oil companies just announced a loss of over $1 Billion in the last 3 months of 2018 alone. That can't go on forever eventually many of these companies will go bankrupt

 

Alberta never asked not to control the industries impact on environment. All they are asking for is pipelines so that the industry doesn't have to keep selling their oil for big discounts. But since that's not happening the province is rethinking whether it can afford to keep such high costly standards for the industry

 

Just because ppl love to hate on oil industry doesn't mean it's as simple as "I don't feel sorry for them". Energy is our biggest export...

 

We kill the industry expect a big drop in living standards in this country!

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11 minutes ago, Lord Temptation said:

Never been too keen on Japan but Canada just seems so intriguing, always. Especially after you described your cottage story in that lake just outside Toronto!!! :wub:I didn’t realise Quebec came so close to separating. Maybe it is inevitable? Wouldn’t that cut off Eastern Canada from the rest? If Canada were to break up I could see it becoming maybe 4-5 separate countries. I don’t think it’s impossible to speak of, all around the world people are sick of bureaucracy business class fliers making top-down decisions for millions. We are craving local decisions, local representatives and local solutions. The internet makes decentralisation very realisable. I don’t even think the US is that stable. Realistically it is about 20-25 countries rolled into one. 

Cottage country is super beautiful tho to be fair my uncle's cottage and area is even nicer than most. Some cottage areas are obviously nicer than others

 

And that sounds about right... Quebec would be their own thing, Alberta and Saskatchewan would stay together, British Columbia would seperate to their own because their politics is super polar opposite from Alberta and Saskatchewan and Ontario would stay alone (maybe take Manitoba with them)

 

The northern territories with the natives is pretty empty. Either they would belong to some of the other new Nations or also seperate on their own

 

But a Quebec seperation is less likely now. This last referendum where 49% of ppl voted to seperate was done quite a while back...

 

The younger generation doesn't care for seperation as much so the percentage of people in Quebec who want to seperate is declining (tho still enough to bring up the issue every so often)

 

2 or 3 years ago during a Provincial election a party in Quebec brought up seperation and they immediately dropped on the polls... So at the moment the desire to leave by the population isn't as strong as it once was

 

Also most of Quebec population growth is happening in Montreal (Canada's second largest city) and fewer people there support seperation than the rest of Quebec...

 

As Montreal (that is more influenced by English culture and more excepting to diversity and doesn't really see the need to protect french culture so badly) keeps growing in Quebec's importance, that too is reducing the number of people for seperation

 

If you go to Montreal at lest 70% of people speak English and they are cool with other Canadians visiting...

 

If you go more north of Montreal to smaller cities and towns, the resentment against English Canadians is stronger

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Nikolai Barrow
30 minutes ago, Economy said:

I agree with needing to consider the environment...

 

But it's not just about carbon taxes. Alberta already put in a Carbon tax before the Federal Government made a National one, they created an emissions cap (meaning no new projects can be approved once that ceiling is hit) and came up with countless regulations to minimize damage on land

 

But there's a limit to how much punishment an industry can take. Having all these regulations and now a carbon tax and still forcing them to except big discounts for their oil makes it impossible for the industry to compete. 

 

Cenovus for example one of the largest oil companies just announced a loss of over $1 Billion in the last 3 months of 2018 alone. That can't go on forever eventually many of these companies will go bankrupt

 

Alberta never asked not to control the industries impact on environment. All they are asking for is pipelines so that the industry doesn't have to keep selling their oil for big discounts. But since that's not happening the province is rethinking whether it can afford to keep such high costly standards for the industry

 

Just because ppl love to hate on oil industry doesn't mean it's as simple as "I don't feel sorry for them". Energy is our biggest export...

 

We kill the industry expect a big drop in living standards in this country!

Like i said not fully versed on everything that is going on. You make some good points. Unfortunately the pipeline would be a disaster just waiting to happen. And it being crude oil just makes it worse. Perhaps if it was refind here in Canada it wouldn't be so bad on the environment if their was a spill and could create more jobs in Canada. 

It is an interesting debate and as you said in the first post we are in a weird place where provinces are fighting the federal government. I don't really ever remember anything like this happening in recent memory. 

Edited by Nikolai Barrow

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