#HelpCatalonia

[Luc 4,776]

2 hours ago, JoanneMonster said:

Wtf are you saying? Violence was not needed and they cant just kick people like that.

Just by saying that you are showing me you have no idea.

Catalonia is fighting to be able to express itself, the majority voted YES, so why is asking for what people want useless?

You can't consider the referendum legitimate... low turn-out, bad circumstances, etc.

 

The only good representation of the population of Catalonia is in parliament, which clearly shows a majority against independence. Truthfully, why is independence even so important? What will you get from it? I'm pretty sure that striking and protesting over something like wages and education is much more effective and much more impactful on the average Catalan's life.

[teenagechrist 2,853]

12 hours ago, StarryNight said:

referendum that they tried not only violated laws of Spain but the laws of Catalonia itself... police did what they had to do, sadly it included violence. I was just reading about this topic earlier today if you have time read it it's interesting imo

 it's the last post on this page.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=142949721#post142949721

 

if you can't open that link here's copied post

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Sinoć sam dobio iscrpan izveštaj sa lica mesta od ortaka koji je doktorant u Barseloni, pa da vam ukratko prežvačem kako stoje stvari i šta se zapravo dešava.

Za nezavisnost Katalonije je generalno manjina ljudi. Ogromna većina nižih slojeva je protiv nezavisnosti, bez obzira da li im je katalonski zvanično prvi jezik ili ne. Problem nije međuetnički, pošto Katalonci kao etnička grupa postoje samo na papiru i suštinski etnička podela ne postoji kao takva. Veliki procenat onih kojima je katalonski prvi jezik su zapravo ljudi sa španskim imenom i prezimenom, a Katalonci su utoliko što žive u Kataloniji (tako je definisano i katalonskim i španskim zakonima).
Nezavisnost zagovaraju bogatiji slojevi (viši i viši srednji) pošto gledaju svoj ekonomski interes - podržavaš otcepljenje i obezbediš sebi bolje uslove poslovanja, manje poreze itd. Intelektualna elita je velikom većinom takođe protiv nezavisnosti.

Kada se sve sagleda, mora da se konstatuje da je sam referednum bio čista sprdnja - prekršen ustav Španije, prekršeni zakoni Katalonije, nije bilo biračkog spiska, rukom su zapisivali ko je gde glasao, nema elektronske kontrole glasanja, nema zvaničnih glasačkih listića (mogli su sami da štampaju listiće kod kuće i donesu ih na glasačko mesto), mogao je da glasa ko god hoće, gde hoće i koliko god puta hoće, izlaznost ispod 50% itd... Dakle, sam referendum nema nikakvu pravnu težinu i sam parlament Katalonije ne može da ga upotrebi kao osnovu za bilo kakvo dalje pravno delovanje. Kada se sve to uzme u obzir, nikome nije jasno zašto se tu uopšte mešala policija i ganjala ljude po ulici (inače ukupno je valjda 4 ljudi završilo u bolnici). Deluje da je tu bilo nekog problema u komunikaciji između policije i vlade u Madridu, pošto vlada igra veoma zrelu igru.

Deklaracija o nezavisnosti je nevažeća po zakonima Katalonije pošto je potpisana izvan parlamenta. Dakle, po lokalnom zakonu, ona nema nikakvu pravnu težinu i ne smatra se dokumentom. A postavlja se pitanje zašto je to u opšte urađeno? Pa, pošto je potpisana van zgrade parlamenta i pošto je nevažeća, potpisnici ne mogu da odgovaraju pred španskim zakonima za akt ilegalnog separatizma i državnog udara. Drugim rečima deklaracija o nezavisnosti ne postoji, i to voljom Pokemona i klike.

I naravno, pitanje koje visi u vazduhu - kog vraga su onda organizovali referendum ako su ga pravili tako da bude ništavan? Prost odgovor - pare. Katalonija konstantno pokušava da iskamči veća prava raspolaganja svojim novcem, da što manje daju centralnoj vladi, da ubiraju što veći procenat prihoda... Otuda podrška najbogatijih. Referendum prošao, kao potpisana nezavisnost, a oni traže pregovore. Pa o čemu? Referendumom je pokušano da se uceni centralna vlast, da se izgradi bolja pregovaračka pozicija u pokušaju da se izvuče još para.

A centralna vlast je vlas jedne ozbiljne, jake države. Mogu da budu ološ kakav god, ali nisu šarlatani kao ovi naši. Marijano Rahoj sa Pokemonom igra partiju pokera u kojoj, da citiram ortaka, "ne samo da ima bolje karte, nego i zna bolje da igra". Intervencija policije na dan glasanja nikome nije jasna, ali izgleda da se krivci javljaju u poiciji, neko u MUP-u se uspaničio. Deluje da Pokemon blefira i Rahoj pušta da se stvari odvijaju sporo... i polako podgreva poziciju separatista. Pristalice od separatista očekuju proglašenje nezavisnosti, za šta deluje da ne postoji prepreka, što ovi ne čine. Samim tim počinju da gube podršku, jer sam referendum počinje da gubi smisao. Rahoj im produžava vreme da da se izjasne da li su proglasili nezavisnost i odbijaće da pregovara sa njima dok se ne izjasne. Produžavaće im vreme da se izjasne do momenta dok potpuno ne izgube poverenje svojih pristalica. Paralelno sa tim lokalna ekonomija postaje sve slabija, pošto se jake firme sele iz Katalonije, veliki procenat privrednih i poslovnih banaka je napustio Kataloniju. Neke od tradicionalnih katalonskih fabrika (npr. najpoznatiji proizvođač tradicionalnog katalonskog penušavog vina, jednog od simbola Katalonije) takođe napuštaju tu teritoriju, što je veliki simbolički šamar, ako ne toliko ekonomski. Vlada sve to podgreva uskraćivanjem keša koji Kataloniji stiže iz EU, pa će postati problem isplaćivati plate u javnom sektoru... Uz sve to ih kulira EU, niko ne pridaje značaj referendumu isamo se konstatuje da Katalonija neće biti član EU, što stvara ogroman pritisak na lokalnu privredu. Rahoj će čekati da stvari kulminiraju, da se separatisti međusobno isposvađaju, pa će verovatno ukinuti autonomiju, organizovati izbore i restartovati stvari. Pokemona verovatno čeka robija zbog pokušaja državnog udara, kršenja zakona Španije i Katalonije.

__________________

 

Police did what they had to do???? They were voting and doing no harm. I mean nazis have been doing rallys in Spain and police has done NOTHING about it. The referendum had to be illegal because Spain's government didn't want to listen, Catalonia has been asking for negotiation and dialogue for years, but they refused to listen to what catalans have to say because they simply don't care, and the same thing goes for EU, they only care about their own benefits and about their own money, they don't give a **** about democracy or about what citizens have been asking for years. 

 

[BornSimon 4,832]

10 hours ago, JoanneMonster said:

Wtf are you saying? Violence was not needed and they cant just kick people like that.

Just by saying that you are showing me you have no idea.

Catalonia is fighting to be able to express itself, the majority voted YES, so why is asking for what people want useless?

What majority? There was no quorum for this referendum, and less than half of the population went to vote, because it was ILLEGAL. Some people voted multiple times and even foreigners went to vote when they couldn't. The referendum was a total farce, everyone knows it. I really think people who don't live here don't really know what's going on and are media-manipulated. This video is offensive and pathetic and an insult to countries that actually suffer a dictatorship, a violation of human rights and severe poverty.

[jayzer 2,507]

mess

[reditaccount288 377]

30 minutes ago, BornSimon said:

What majority? There was no quorum for this referendum, and less than half of the population went to vote, because it was ILLEGAL. Some people voted multiple times and even foreigners went to vote when they couldn't. The referendum was a total farce, everyone knows it. I really think people who don't live here don't really know what's going on and are media-manipulated. This video is offensive and pathetic and an insult to countries that actually suffer a dictatorship, a violation of human rights and severe poverty.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, JoanneMonster said:

Wtf are you saying? Violence was not needed and they cant just kick people like that.

Just by saying that you are showing me you have no idea.

Catalonia is fighting to be able to express itself, the majority voted YES, so why is asking for what people want useless?

They have the right to express themselves, I just personally think being independent would make them gain nothing

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Liza said:

If Catalonia became independent, how would their place in the world be confusing, if the whole world already knows about Catalonia and "their own little thing" that they have going on?

Confusion about Catalonia's future in the world, their place in this world. Most likely a lot of companies would leave to Spain, Barcelona is the biggest region in terms of economic output, they will lose that, at least for a few years but what if it'll be for 10 years or more? It's way too dangerous imo. They would also automatically leave EU, how is it going to impact the economy and their money? It could be a major blow but I guess tryna separate yourself from "Spanish" is more important for them (not a criticism) 

[JoanneMonster 9,074]

9 hours ago, BornSimon said:

What majority? There was no quorum for this referendum, and less than half of the population went to vote, because it was ILLEGAL. Some people voted multiple times and even foreigners went to vote when they couldn't. The referendum was a total farce, everyone knows it. I really think people who don't live here don't really know what's going on and are media-manipulated. This video is offensive and pathetic and an insult to countries that actually suffer a dictatorship, a violation of human rights and severe poverty.

If you think violence was justified, I think you are a terrible person. If you don't want Catalonia's independence you could just vote NO. 

The people who doesn't live here are being media-manipulated, yes. They are making the catalans look like crazy ppl who hate spain and want independece and its not like that.

Women voting was illegal too and they did something to change it.

This video is not an insult, it's like saying you can't complain if you don't like the food in a restaurant because there are kids starving in the world... Everyone has theur own problems. 

Spain not letting their citizens vote is democratic? what?

 

[BornSimon 4,832]

2 hours ago, JoanneMonster said:

If you think violence was justified, I think you are a terrible person. If you don't want Catalonia's independence you could just vote NO. 

The people who doesn't live here are being media-manipulated, yes. They are making the catalans look like crazy ppl who hate spain and want independece and its not like that.

Women voting was illegal too and they did something to change it.

This video is not an insult, it's like saying you can't complain if you don't like the food in a restaurant because there are kids starving in the world... Everyone has theur own problems. 

Spain not letting their citizens vote is democratic? what?

 

Your victimism won't work with me. I live in Barcelona, and I know what I am talking about. I didn't mention the violence for one second. I too condemn those disgusting acts that happened on both sides and I hate the fascism that the Spanish government has made people exhibit freely lately. Going to vote "NO" was useless, because the referendum itself was useless. It meant nothing, it had no legal value, and the votes were completely ****ed up because many people voted more than once, and Italian people I know went to vote, and they didn't have the right, but they let them anyway.

The awful actress in this video speaks of FREEDOM, of HUMAN RIGHTS, of OPPRESSION, and it's a spit in the face of those who REALLY deal with such matters on a daily basis. And you know that Catalonia doesn't deal with these issues. You know it. Don't say it's not true because then you'd be lying.

I don't give a **** if Catalonia becomes independent or not, it's not so black and white, but I don't tolerate the bullshit that BOTH SIDES are brainwashing people with.

[JoanneMonster 9,074]

1 minute ago, BornSimon said:

The awful actress in this video speaks of FREEDOM, of HUMAN RIGHTS, of OPPRESSION, and it's a spit in the face of those who REALLY deal with such matters on a daily basis. And you know that Catalonia doesn't deal with these issues. You know it. Don't say it's not true because then you'd be lying.

kicking and puncking people is vulnerating the HUMAN RIGHTS

not letting people decide is vulnerating their FREEDOM

saying kids are being ''catalanized'' because they are living in catalonia and they should only be spanish, dissing people with different opinions is OPPRESSION

There's a system that if you vote more than once, or you are not from here your vote isn't counted, but okay

[BornSimon 4,832]

8 minutes ago, JoanneMonster said:

kicking and puncking people is vulnerating the HUMAN RIGHTS

not letting people decide is vulnerating their FREEDOM

saying kids are being ''catalanized'' because they are living in catalonia and they should only be spanish, dissing people with different opinions is OPPRESSION

There's a system that if you vote more than once, or you are not from here your vote isn't counted, but okay

I do not agree with the violence, but the referendum was ILLEGAL. It's really not too hard to understand. Those people didn't have to be there in the first place. The police gave the Catalan government exactly what they wanted with their awful violence, sadly. It's all a big pity party. This video is a massive pity party. There was a legal referendum just two years ago and the majority voted "NO", but Catalonia being Catalonia pushes for one every year until people are exhausted and vote "YES". 

The referendum violated Spanish and Catalan laws. So it's not that people weren't free to vote, it wasn't the way to do it. 

And kids ARE told certain things at school. I have been with my Catalan boyfriend for 13 years, he has 3 nephews and they all go to school here and yes, they mostly speak Catalan at school, and Spanish has disappeared from almost everywhere despite being an official language. I am sure you know all these things yourself. And it's the same at most Universities.

I also wanna add that IMPOSING an independent Catalonia on the whole region would not me DEMOCRATIC at all. Since "democracy" is everyone's favourite word lately, I think people should use it wisely. The Spanish police wasn't very democratic at all, but if you think the Catalan government is democratic you really need to think again.

[Monsterish 5,520]

15 minutes ago, BornSimon said:

I don't give a **** if Catalonia becomes independent or not, it's not so black and white, but I don't tolerate the bullshit that BOTH SIDES are brainwashing people with.

I never thought I'd find someone with my same political thoughts in this site, lol 

[BornSimon 4,832]

9 minutes ago, Lil Mxnster said:

I never thought I'd find someone with my same political thoughts in this site, lol 

Come here give me a hug