Billie: “You can eat meat. You can love animals. But you can’t do boooooooooth.”

[elegidadedios 4,902]

1 hour ago, PartySick said:

Oop. My dear vegans in the chat tonight, please try not to break an arm jerking yourselves off.

You don't get to tell people who they are simply because they eat one thing or another. That's like me calling all vegans eco-terrorists because agriculture at it's core is bad for the environment (deforestation, cuts biodiversity, rampant pesticide use, aggressive water usage, destruction of top soil, etc).

"You can't say you love nature when acres and acres of forest are being chopped down to grow YOUR soy beans!!"

See how stupid that sounds?

"You can't say you care about animal welfare when you EAT HAMBURGERS"

See how stupid that makes you sound?

I eat meat and I love animals. I support regulations on the meat industry to curb both its impact on the environment and to curb the cruelty aspect.

To tell me "um actually, you think and feel this way because I said so ☝️🤓" is so egotistical and self-aggrandizing it's no wonder people hate vegans lmao.

We're all human, we're all hypocrites. And if you say "I'm not a hypocrite!" then you're both a hypocrite and a liar.

It's so refreshing to read this. You couldn't have said it better

[Bebe 17,289]

1 hour ago, PartySick said:

Oop. My dear vegans in the chat tonight, please try not to break an arm jerking yourselves off.

You don't get to tell people who they are simply because they eat one thing or another. That's like me calling all vegans eco-terrorists because agriculture at it's core is bad for the environment (deforestation, cuts biodiversity, rampant pesticide use, aggressive water usage, destruction of top soil, etc).

"You can't say you love nature when acres and acres of forest are being chopped down to grow YOUR soy beans!!"

See how stupid that sounds?

"You can't say you care about animal welfare when you EAT HAMBURGERS"

See how stupid that makes you sound?

I eat meat and I love animals. I support regulations on the meat industry to curb both its impact on the environment and to curb the cruelty aspect.

To tell me "um actually, you think and feel this way because I said so ☝️🤓" is so egotistical and self-aggrandizing it's no wonder people hate vegans lmao.

We're all human, we're all hypocrites. And if you say "I'm not a hypocrite!" then you're both a hypocrite and a liar.

 

""You can't say you love nature when acres and acres of forest are being chopped down to grow YOUR soy beans!!"

See how stupid that sounds?""

 

Yes - it would sound stupid considering 80% of the soy beans grown in the US are grown to feed animals so they can then be slaughtered and eaten.

The vegan diet is often cited as the largest way to cut your environmental footprint, including greenhouse gases, land use, and water pollution. If you supported the environment then the best diet to support would be a vegan diet.

What regulations on the meat industry do you support that "curb both its impact on the environment and to curb the cruelty aspect"?

As noted above, eliminating the meat industry would certainly have the highest positive impact on the environment. Would seemingly also have the most significant impact on eliminating cruelty as well considering animals would stop being slaughtered.

[Bebe 17,289]

1 hour ago, TheSine said:

Ahhh, I'm not trying to deflect your point, because having higher plant consumption can help improve the environment, but...

As humans, we are born omnivores, which means we can thrive on a varied diet. While going vegan comes with its perks, it requires more planning to avoid lacking important nutrients such as Omega-3s, and B12. Much of the benefit comes from eating fewer processed foods, and increased fiber intake which is good for lowering LDL cholesterol and slows down sugar absorption. Those same benefits can be achieved through other balanced diets, like Mediterranean or pescatarian, without fully cutting out animal products.

Eating meat may not be a need, but it can make certain nutrients easier to obtain. For many people, especially in the US, High-quality food isn't easily obtainable due to cost and time constraints. Broader improvements in food systems and reductions in industrial meat production may have a larger impact than expecting everyone to adopt a single dietary pattern.

Yes we are born omnivores, we don't need to eat meat we can also eat vegetables and legumes. 

I promise you that you can have a very cheap vegan lifestyle while maintaining your essential vitamins. Especially if you take vitamin tablets.

It's really it a massive inconvenience to eat plant based and take supplements where necessary that it could justify the attrcoties of factory farming

[NewYorkOnTheWeeknd 1,577]

After reading through all this bullshit, I could really go for a burger. 

[Bebe 17,289]

4 hours ago, Ultimecia said:

I think you've misinterpreted some of the points I made.

The "no choice" I brought up was in relation to having no source of ethical or sustainable meat at our disposition, I'm not arguing anyone has no choice of eating meat.

I didn't experience any poor treatment of animals first hand, and my overall experience working there was positive. My takeaway was that the industry is simply fulfilling a demand for meat that is way too high, and that this demand is what leads to more animals being raised, which in turn leads to worse conditions for them.

The industry is unsustainable because the current demand for meat is unsustainable, but eating meat isn't inherently immoral. Shifting to a more plant based diet and production is part of the solution, I don't disagree, but cutting off all meat consumption isn't.

There is no such thing as ethical or sustainable meat. I would like for you to try and explain what that looks like and how it works.

I'd argue being slaughtered isnt the best treatment.

If you want people to reduce their meat consumption to improve animal welfare and for the environment why not go the whole way and endorse the diet that is best for the environment and for animal welfare?

[Bronco 25,131]

3 minutes ago, Bebe said:

I promise you that you can have a very cheap vegan lifestyle while maintaining your essential vitamins. Especially if you take vitamin tablets

Except people on SNAP can't use their funds for vitamin supplements. 

So how cheap are we actually talking if people receiving social security are restricted?  

 

[Bebe 17,289]

2 minutes ago, Bronco said:

Except people on SNAP can't use their funds for vitamin supplements. 

So how cheap are we actually talking if people receiving social security are restricted?  

 

Still plenty accessible! A lot of cheap cereals or vegan pantry items like nutritional yeast is fortified with B-12.

[TheSine 6,911]

31 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Yes we are born omnivores, we don't need to eat meat we can also eat vegetables and legumes. 

I promise you that you can have a very cheap vegan lifestyle while maintaining your essential vitamins. Especially if you take vitamin tablets.

It's really it a massive inconvenience to eat plant based and take supplements where necessary that it could justify the attrcoties of factory farming

The thing is, most people don't want to take vitamin supplements just to sustain themselves. I love your strive and while adopting a vegan lifestyle does have its benefits, it really isn't beneficial or sustainable for most people. It'd have bigger impact if we improved food systems and reducing industrial meat production. How? I don't know. I'd have to dive deeper into that, but it's not impossible as it has been working with some fish farming sources.

15 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Still plenty accessible! A lot of cheap cereals or vegan pantry items like nutritional yeast is fortified with B-12.

I feel like leaning on cereals and nutritional yeast for B-12 is worse than just living off a can of sardines and some canned vegetables...

Edited April 29 by TheSine

[Helxig 45,366]

I mean as a vegetarian of 16 years I kind of agree. I can't sit around and marvel at the beauty of animals and grow up as an animal lover and then also take their muscle tissue and other flesh into my mouth, chew it and taste their bodies on my tongue, feel the animals blood sponging out of a steak and mixing with my saliva, and then swallow them down. To me it's just completely black and white, there is no separation. However.. I think what it comes down to is actually whether you have the ability to mentally separate them and actually view them as different things, rather than a 'you can't love animals and eat them'. I guess a lot of people love animals but they just don't see meat as animals, even if they consciously know it's the same thing there's a subconscious mental wall between the two

In my mind seeing 'meat' is literally the same thing as seeing a dead animal cut open and bleeding in front of me. Its. The. Same. Thing. But I've realised that almost everybody else has this distinction in their mind, as if meat and animal are two different things. And as the outlier I have to understand and accept that I'm in the minority and I'm the odd one out. So I don't sit around judging meat eaters, and I've made it a rule to not even make a passing comment people, even to those I'm close with, and I do believe in freedom of choice

Billie's comment is half right, half misdirected and tone deaf

[Bronco 25,131]

26 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Still plenty accessible! A lot of cheap cereals or vegan pantry items like nutritional yeast is fortified with B-12.

But your point was that vegan diets were cheap while maintaining essential vitamins through vitamin supplements. 

Like it just seems like you are speaking from a position where you don't have to struggle to access good quality food and aren't fully recognising the class issues inherent in dietary lifestyles.

[Bebe 17,289]

37 minutes ago, TheSine said:

The thing is, most people don't want to take vitamin supplements just to sustain themselves. I love your strive and while adopting a vegan lifestyle does have its benefits, it really isn't beneficial or sustainable for most people. It'd have bigger impact if we improved food systems and reducing industrial meat production. How? I don't know. I'd have to dive deeper into that, but it's not impossible as it has been working with some fish farming sources.

I feel like leaning on cereals and nutritional yeast for B-12 is worse than just living off a can of sardines and some canned vegetables...

If the biggest hurdle you see to not participating in an industry that is responsible for the slaughter of 200–210 million land animals daily is that you don't want to take one B-12 pill, you should probably just take the pill right? 

The fact is that animal farming in unavoidably inefficient. 1/3 of the global food production goes into feeding farm animals, 80% of US soy goes to animal feed and 40% of corn.  Becoming a vegan is the biggest impact you can have on your carbon footprint and, best of all, it eliminates unnecessary suffering:

Most US residents would be living a far healthier life if they went plant based.

If we are at the point of starvation, you eat what you can get, but it's not a great argument for why the vast majority of people should go plant based. If they did, a lot more foods would be fortified with with B-12.

Edited April 29 by Bebe

[Bebe 17,289]

20 minutes ago, Bronco said:

But your point was that vegan diets were cheap while maintaining essential vitamins through vitamin supplements. 

Like it just seems like you are speaking from a position where you don't have to struggle to access good quality food and aren't fully recognising the class issues inherent in dietary lifestyles.

My point is that it is in fact a contradiction to support the meat industry while claiming you love animals.

That's also a pretty big assumption to make about me!

I've lived on canned lentils, canned tomatoes, frozen veg, pasta and rice and an array of different spices. Very cheap. Blood work coming through just fine. 

Over 90% of Americans are deficient in at least one essential nutrient so I don’t know why we are getting so hung up on B-12 when a vegan diet would assist with the most common nutrient deficiencies we already see in the US and leave the majority with better health outcomes.

If you are in such a difficult position that you are also unable to afford b-12 supplements but also eating a diet that is meeting every other nutritional requirement then we are bordering absurd hypotheticals. 

If we are talking about survival situations, then of course I’d endorse someone eating meat - but I don’t think that’s a concession as much as I am strongly anti-cannibalism but would accept it in some hypothetical survival situation.

It does not justify the cow milk in your daily coffee, with your bacon/eggs breakfast, chicken burrito lunch and  spaghetti bolognaise dinner. Let’s engage with each other honestly and not deflect with hypotheticals of someone in a made up situation.

Edited April 29 by Bebe

[Bronco 25,131]

6 minutes ago, Bebe said:

I don’t know why we are getting so hung up on B-12

You are the only person who specifically referenced B-12. 

And I have to question at this point, are you aware other vitamins and minerals exist? 

7 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Let’s engage with each other honestly and not deflect with hypotheticals of someone in a made up situation.

SNAP restrictions & class inequalities in the food industry aren't hypotheticals. 

The only hypothetical in this thread is from your introduction of a hypothetical person with a B-12 deficiency.

[Bebe 17,289]

40 minutes ago, Bronco said:

You are the only person who specifically referenced B-12. 

And I have to question at this point, are you aware other vitamins and minerals exist? 

SNAP restrictions & class inequalities in the food industry aren't hypotheticals. 

The only hypothetical in this thread is from your introduction of a hypothetical person with a B-12 deficiency.

Vitamin B12 is the only vitamin not reliably supplied by a varied, whole-food, plant-based diet which is why it’s the only vitamin I’m discussing?

If you cannot afford a varied, whole-food, plant-based diet or B-12 supplements then you cannot afford a diet that meets all your nutritional needs period. So my question again would be, why are we hung up on B-12 when over 90% of Americans are deficient in at least one essential nutrient?

You can be on SNAP and be vegan, in fact it is possible to meet your nutritional needs better than the majority of Americans.

Edited April 29 by Bebe

[Bronco 25,131]

6 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Vitamin B12 is the only vitamin not reliably supplied by a varied, whole-food, plant-based diet which is why it’s the only vitamin I’m discussing?

Not true. 

Non-heme iron sources are harder for the human digestive system to reliably absorb

D2, the primary plant based source of vitamin D, again is harder for the digestive system to reliably absorb.

Omega 3 acids are also on the list of essentially vitamins & minerals where plant based sources are less reliable in the human digestive system. 

And I'm not criticising you for discussing B-12, although I will point out you should provide the logic of singling it out at the start not the end of a discussion.

What I criticised you for was the fact you went on the offensive, accusing me of getting hung up on something that I didn't bring up or discuss, and suggested I wasn't acting honestly because I was debating made up hypotheticals. Again - the only hypothetical ever brought into the debate was by yourself. And you proceeded to get mad at me for even briefly responding to it. 

13 minutes ago, Bebe said:

So my question again would be, why are we hung up on B-12 when over 90% of Americans are deficient in at least one essential nutrient?

Lets engage in a debate that is honest and not rooted in hypotheticals.