Militants infiltrate Israel from Gaza & over 5,000 rockets fired towards Israel

[Future Lovers 7,616]

16 minutes ago, PartySick said:

Not...the answer I was hoping for...

I mean, how do they even fight back against this. It seems so hopeless.

They really can't fight back against a full scale invasion. 

Israel has them in an open air prison, essentially. Their electricity, water supply, and everything they need to survive is completely dependent upon Israel giving it to them. They have no self sufficiency because they haven't been allowed it, and they don't have an actual government to work to give it to them either. 

Hamas controls Gaza, but Palestinians in their majority don't want them to. Hamas cancelled an election just a little under a decade ago when it became clear Palestinians intended to vote them out and replace them with a more legitimate government. Ever since, they have been illegally holding office there. They do not have the best interests of Palestine at heart. 

All that to say, Palestinians themselves have nothing. Hamas has some weapons of course, and they have some allegiance with Iran. But that allegiance and those weapons are not available resources for Palestine. 

Israel in an invasion would indeed take out Hamas. 

But the trouble is, an invasion of Palestine by Israel is not going to result in Hamas removed from power followed by Palestinians given a chance at life. 

Israel doesn't really in the end care about Hamas. Hamas' existence is nothing but a way to justify to the world what they're doing. Israel has successfully managed to use the western world's fear of terrorism in a post 9/11 world to turn everyone on Palestine. They've created the narrative that Palestine and Hamas are of one mind and one collective. Add in traditional fear of westerns of Arabs in general and you're left with a group of people who're stuck under a terrorist regime in an open air prison, millions of people squashed into a small strip of land, under control of a government who doesn't care about them, and under occupation from a neighboring government who wants them dead. 

If an invasion happens, Hamas will be taken out. So will all of the Palestinians under them. Israel will take the land, colonize it, and perform an ethnic cleansing until the entire ethnic group that occupies Palestine exists only in the annals of history. 

[Flippy 14,293]

All the innocent people dying on both sides… this is truly terrible  

[faysalaaa 5,336]

6 hours ago, Dennis said:

How was the U.S imperialist in the Middle East where AlQaida was located though? Prior to 9/11, U.S was involved only in one war waged by NATO to liberate NATO citizens taken hostage by Iraq when it invaded Kuwait. And that war concluded without taking any territory or removing Saddam from power. Not to mention, that was one of the most justifiable wars ever waged. Saddam basically invaded Kuwait to steal their oil, make them forgive his debt and took NATO citizens hostage in the process.

Let's not rewrite history. U.S misguided involvement in the middle east started AFTER 9/11, not before.

So no, there were absolutely no valid grievances to even remotely justify or serve as a reasoning for 9/11 attack. AlQaida sympathizers always tried to portray America as oppressor of mulsims, except that none of the historical examples you can point to are muslim countries (Vietnam, Cuba, latin America etc..)  and actually one of the most controversial U.S involvement (in Serbia) was to save the muslim population there (now Kosovo).

But America was always involved in the Middle East way before the gulf war?

America was involved in Iran during the 60's, which caused the Iranian revolution in the 70's.

They also funded Al Qaeda terrorists to fight the soviet union in the 70's, which resulted in the 9/11 attacks.

They funded Saddam Hussain with weapons of mass destruction to fight Iran in the Iran-Iraq War, which soon resulted in the gulf war and two Iraq wars.

Not to mention all the funding of Israel..

[Dennis 8,391]

23 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

But America was always involved in the Middle East way before the gulf war?

America was involved in Iran during the 60's, which caused the Iranian revolution in the 70's.

They also funded Al Qaeda terrorists to fight the soviet union in the 70's, which resulted in the 9/11 attacks.

They funded Saddam Hussain with weapons of mass destruction to fight Iran in the Iran-Iraq War, which soon resulted in the gulf war and two Iraq wars.

Not to mention all the funding of Israel..

Context is important: I was talking about the fact the U.S did not wage a war or conduct hostile military operations, or engaged in things that can be perceived as oppression of muslims before 9/11. And none of these points that I'll describe below meet that standard:

1. America was friendly to Iran before the revolution. They viewed the Shah as more aligned with the West ideologically (although turned a blind eye to his corruption). This is a non-military issue. More of diplomatic/strategic decisions. Such diplomatic decisions are made by countries all over the world. Today China for example is friendly to the current iranian regime etc..

2.  It is true that Saddam Hussein received help with manufacturing chemical weapons in the 60s and 70s. But the companies in question were German, not American. However the U.S did help Saddam by warning him of an impeding Iranian counter-attack. Maybe that's what you meant?

3. U.S did provide weapons to "freedom fighters" to fight against USSR occupation, but if you read my context above, I'm not sure how this can perceived as point of grievance for AlQaida to use it as reasoning/justification for 9/11? If anything, it's an argument that goes against them.

4. As for Israel, a historical fact that you may not know about: Many countries provided weapons to Israel. Ironically, initially the U.S and Europe were reluctant to send weapons to Israel. The USSR used to be the main supplier in the early days. However relations later deteriorated when Israel became more aligned with the West.

[LOVEDRUG 11,269]

not sure how responding to a thread about a massacre with a chart actively chosen to try and downplay the significance of those deaths is allowed on here but it's gross.

palestinians have suffered terribly at the hands of the current israeli administration, i'm not going to deny that for a second, it's a war, there are people suffering all over. but it might be nice to have a single modicum of respect here, and have a single thread here where people can offer condolences without someone going "well more palestinians have died so... doesn't matter".

[LilyLark 10,213]

41 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

But America was always involved in the Middle East way before the gulf war?

America was involved in Iran during the 60's, which caused the Iranian revolution in the 70's.

They also funded Al Qaeda terrorists to fight the soviet union in the 70's, which resulted in the 9/11 attacks.

They funded Saddam Hussain with weapons of mass destruction to fight Iran in the Iran-Iraq War, which soon resulted in the gulf war and two Iraq wars.

Not to mention all the funding of Israel..

I kind of have to disagree on the Mujahedin. It was multiple groups, some of them even socialist and fairly liberal, who nevertheless fought the USSR because of the occupation. It was kind of an "my enemy of the enemy is my friend," because the US was very anti-socialist for the most part. Of course "some" of the groups were hardcore Islamists and later gained control, but the whole "the taliban was the Mujahedin" isn't entirely correct.

The Taliban came later, and was made up of people who were part of the Mujahedin. But it isn't fair to characterize "all" of the Mujahedin as Taliban, it was a section.

[faysalaaa 5,336]

5 minutes ago, LilyLark said:

I kind of have to disagree on the Mujahedin. It was multiple groups, some of them even socialist and fairly liberal, who nevertheless fought the USSR because of the occupation. It was kind of an "my enemy of the enemy is my friend," because the US was very anti-socialist for the most part. Of course "some" of the groups were hardcore Islamists and later gained control, but the whole "the taliban was the Mujahedin" isn't entirely correct.

The Taliban came later, and was made up of people who were part of the Mujahedin. But it isn't fair to characterize "all" of the Mujahedin as Taliban, it was a section.

Well yeah but my point is America was involved, and their involvement and funding of random rebel groups created all this.

[Emvee 8,833]

1 hour ago, Melancholia said:

not sure how responding to a thread about a massacre with a chart actively chosen to try and downplay the significance of those deaths is allowed on here but it's gross.

palestinians have suffered terribly at the hands of the current israeli administration, i'm not going to deny that for a second, it's a war, there are people suffering all over. but it might be nice to have a single modicum of respect here, and have a single thread here where people can offer condolences without someone going "well more palestinians have died so... doesn't matter".

The point is that the Israeli government share the blame on the radicalization of the Palestinian people.  

Just like 9/11, terrorism doesn’t just come from nowhere. The pain and rage that Israelis are feeling right now? Palestinians have been feeling that for decades. 
 

Multiplied by the fact that the world doesn’t blink an eye when Palestinians die or thrown out of their homes. 

[LilyLark 10,213]

4 hours ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Well yeah but my point is America was involved, and their involvement and funding of random rebel groups created all this.

Agree that the US f*cked around (funding Israel, Iran overthrow, etc.), but I also kind of agree that post 9/11 is what set everything in motion.

Multiple govts, I believe even Qatar, warned the US about 9/11 and we basically ignored them. If the US avoids 9/11 and avoids going into Iraq and Afghanistan, then a domino effect occurs where a lot of those groups don't grow by leaps and bounds. Terrorism flourishes when faced with an oppressor,  be it the Middle East or any country, and without a large US presence (if the US stayed out of everything, besides funding Israel) I don't think some terrorist groups would grow as powerful.

I feel like people forget that Osama bin Laden was an outlier, too. Sure, a lot of MENA terrorist groups hated the US and France...but they weren't specifically targeting the US 99% of the time. They mostly fought in the region, and focused on Israel. Osama opened a floodgate where people started targeting the US and Europe far more.

[Karl 3,575]

12 hours ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Humans are gonna still human, and we will kill the same amount of people in the name of something different.

How come in some countries humans can live relatively peacefully then such as the UK, Netherlands, Germany, Canada etc? It seems only in highly religious countries that people have these kinds of mass murders and conflicts. Surely if all humans had a built in murderous complex the rates of terror attacks and stuff would be the same across all nations? 

[faysalaaa 5,336]

2 hours ago, Karl said:

How come in some countries humans can live relatively peacefully then such as the UK, Netherlands, Germany, Canada etc? It seems only in highly religious countries that people have these kinds of mass murders and conflicts. Surely if all humans had a built in murderous complex the rates of terror attacks and stuff would be the same across all nations? 

Different circumstances that has nothing to do with religion made these countries peaceful. Also, alot of these civilized countries do alot of crimes but in a very civilized way, and outside their own country. America literally has an illegal concentration camp and is heavily involved in modern day slavery.

But also, alot of atheist countries like the USSR, South Korea, and China are very violent. 

I agree religion is used as a tool to justify violence, but its not the cause of violence, violence was gonna happen regardless.

[faysalaaa 5,336]

 

[faysalaaa 5,336]

 

[Dolev 867]

alerts in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and area.

[Bronco 25,131]

1 hour ago, faysalaaa1 said:

 

Honestly this latest flare up in the Middle East, combined with the war in Ukraine plus all the tensions with China/Taiwan & the fact the Serbs and Bosnians are clearly ready to go to war again.... we've definitely got another world war brewing. Seems like the whole planet wants to kill each other right now....more than they usually do anyway