Is Stan Culture Fundamentally Misogynistic?

[Future Lovers 7,006]

I was talking about this with a friend of mine at work today and was curious for more thoughts. Like the title says, is stan culture a fundamentally misogynistic institution? From my point of view...yeah it kind of is. 

A large faction of stan culture is made up of men (not exclusively, but I'd go so far as to say a majority, even if only slightly, of the people who actively engage in it are men) and what they engage in when they participate in stan culture to me has always been very questionable in regards of the treatment toward pop girls. 

These women are often distilled down solely to their achievements and their stats and their worth is judged solely upon it. 

You see a deep, vitrolic hatred in many stans directed toward any pop girl they don't like. The things people say about Gaga, about Taylor, about Beyonce, about all of the girls really when they don't like them are genuinely quite gross a lot of times. They talk about how they don't deserve their success, how they're terrible at everything, criticize their looks, the way they dress, every little move they make. It seems at time that the strongest pillar of stan culture is just outright bullying any girl you don't like. 

You see the pop girls often get treated as nothing more than a vessel of entertainment. They're dehumanized and cease being people and instead become essentially your personal court jester to entertain you whenever you want it. Any time one of these artists goes on a hiatus, doesn't put an album out fast enough, doesn't promote enough, pauses to pursue other ventures, pauses to have a child, etc, they're dragged through the mud. It's as if the moment they stop supplying content, they no longer matter. 

All that in mind, I'm curious what your thoughts are here? Is stan culture misogynistic? Is it built around blindly and illogically hating women that you've chosen not to support, and then turning around and treating the women you have chosen to support like they work for you personally? 

[bionic 50,107]

I don't think so.

Stan culture by nature is a lightning rod for toxic behavior. For women and gays (by and large) this lightning rod attracts them toward powerful women. The consequence of being pulled toward one woman (or certain women) is to be repelled by their natural competitors– the other women who are filling the same gap. I don't think the chaos of stan culture is inherently misogynistic. Its not really about gender (although sometimes it can specifically be about gender– especially when it comes to pauses to have children as you've highlighted). It just happens to be about women.

Stan culture in heterosexual male dominated communities (rap scenes, rock music, etc) are equally toxic and these people say equally awful things about the powerful men they gravitate toward. 

[Maxine Puth 9,053]

Many men in the music industry and other entertainment spheres (sports) are constantly judged for their respectful stats and performance, the way they look, etc. Join a group of sports fans and you’ll hear them call these strangers they’ve never met the worst of things because they supposedly can’t do their job right.  So no, I wouldn’t say that stan culture in general is “fundamentally misogynistic,” I think that view point comes out of the fact that you put yourself in environments where most of the victims are women. 

[Monstermilo 4,707]

abortion rights are being taken away, women are raped in the workplace, women arent paid the same, they dont get enough representation in our govt. THATS MISOGYNY 

i think stan culture is toxic as a whole - both against men and women. 

[Obobo 3,225]

No it isn't misogyny. People will critique your craft if your an artist - regardless of gender. Same as how bodybuilders are critiqued for their physique, surgeons are critiqued on their success rate, etc.

In fact, celebrities want to make you feel sorry for them when we're just their walking wallets. In real life they experience the love of their fans and can simply turn off phone, check their bank account, tell their publicist they don't want to address any controversies and surround themselves with their entourage -- its like all that hate only exists social media and the press.

[FATCAT 60,223]

Misogyny is ingrained into the fabric of our culture, so it's bound to show up in stan culture & pop culture. I don't think it's fundamentally misogynistic, but it definitely inherits misogyny from society.

[HausOfAntonio 8,021]

I’m not sure its INHERENTLY misogynistic because stanning as a phenomenon js not exclusive to women. There is of course a lot of misogyny attached to the stanning OF female artist, who are just quite undeniably held to different standards than their male counterparts, especially with how much pressure they’re put under for their looks, weight, etc. ALONG WITH the demand for them to be successful critically and commercially with every endeavour. 
 

What is most fascinating to me about this phenomenon though is how it seems to be that cis gay men specifically are the ones perpetuating so much of this misogyny, which goes to show how ingrained it is in the male gender apart from sexuality. Why is it that we as gay men rely so much on the success of these women as if that validated our entire existences?

[Future Lovers 7,006]

1 minute ago, HausOfAntonio said:

What is most fascinating to me about this phenomenon though is how it seems to be that cis gay men specifically are the ones perpetuating so much of this misogyny, which goes to show how ingrained it is in the male gender apart from sexuality. Why is it that we as gay men rely so much on the success of these women as if that validated our entire existences?

Very much this. It's hard sometimes for me to take cis gay men who complain about how cis straight men treat women seriously knowing what they say on social media and forums about whatever female artist they dislike

[NewUsername 11,451]

To me stan also and mostly means just being a superfan of someone, without all that negative shizz 

[MOT 3,181]

Negativity is usually directed at someone because they are seen as a rival to your fave. I don't think misogyny comes into it.

[Lucas 27,283]

2 hours ago, bionic said:

I don't think so.

Stan culture by nature is a lightning rod for toxic behavior. For women and gays (by and large) this lightning rod attracts them toward powerful women. The consequence of being pulled toward one woman (or certain women) is to be repelled by their natural competitors– the other women who are filling the same gap. I don't think the chaos of stan culture is inherently misogynistic. Its not really about gender (although sometimes it can specifically be about gender– especially when it comes to pauses to have children as you've highlighted). It just happens to be about women.

Stan culture in heterosexual male dominated communities (rap scenes, rock music, etc) are equally toxic and these people say equally awful things about the powerful men they gravitate toward. 

Period.

[StrawberryBlond 14,910]

No, because stan culture feeds into a human's natural desire to compete and to revel in the concept of others competing. All species do this. Because of our advanced human capabilities, however, we have a societal thought process that such a thing is toxic when humans do it, however. Particularly if it's women involved. While women certainly should have more opportunities and respect in this world, it should be to the point that makes us equal, not above men. If men get criticised (and they do, constantly and harshly), then women should be too, as long as it's not because they're women, obviously. Women are wonderful beings in their own right but they're also people too, just like men are people. They should be treated equally, but not as a protected species, for then it becomes an reverse of the privilege that men receive, which shouldn't be the point of feminism. I went into all this in a thread of my own recently, so I reiterate what I said before - women are not precious flowers that can't take criticism. We do want to be judged fairly the same way that men are, with no concessions for our gender. The reason why the topic of how men in music get spoken of isn't even an issue is because we've been told that men can take criticism and women can't. So-called feminist policies are actually pretty sexist when you really think about them, huh? When you're a woman, you don't really see other women as women, they're just people. So, there's no need to make a fuss around our gender. It's the fact that a fuss was ever made that started female oppression in the first place. 

[COOOK 76,406]

On 7/21/2023 at 1:38 AM, Future Lovers said:

Very much this. It's hard sometimes for me to take cis gay men who complain about how cis straight men treat women seriously knowing what they say on social media and forums about whatever female artist they dislike

100%. Some personal experiences I remember:

I was talking to some guys while queuing for the Chromatica Ball Tour. We were talking about the era and stuff and they said that this might be her last pop tour ever because she'll soon focus on starting a family and keep selling make up. They eye-rolled. It was so condescending, it felt like they really hated her.

A gay couple I met a few years ago were die-hard Beehives. They worshipped LEMONADE like true stans, yet dragged her for the Lion King: The Gift. I remember they said she barely moves while performing now because of how fat she's become.

A die-hard swiftie, k-pop stan who I had a hard crush on, disliked Gaga so much. He seemingly had no reason. When we were getting to know each other we talked about our top artists he side eyed me for saying her. He strongly believed she's overrated. To this day, along with his little group of friends, they go on twitter and bash Gaga to put Taylor in a better light... As insane as the fact that I had a crush on this guy. I'm so embarrassed for this, lol.

Two girls I met were big fans of Selena Gomez, Miley Cyrus and Lorde, and they genuinely seemed to like them. No nitpicking, no demands, no buts. It was so refreshing, it felt so healthy.

I don't know, just food for thought.