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French pension reform censure rejected


BBhomemaker

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Enomis

In Italy the age for retirement is around 70ish. 

I'd switch with ur country right now:saladga:

But i get your point.

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I mean where do you set the bar? For a lot of people your health in the 60s will rapidly decline. We work are entire adult lives, how long are we 'allowed' the luxury of rest for in our final years? 

So as some of you knows, the president is trying to pass his plan of reforming the pension system in France, one of the main point is to pass the age of retreat to 64yo.  This project is massivel

The political elite are quite happy raising the retirement age for pensions because they know that they themselves can afford to retire at whatever they want on all their stocks, shares, and favors

Economy
2 hours ago, bionic said:

I mean where do you set the bar? For a lot of people your health in the 60s will rapidly decline. We work are entire adult lives, how long are we 'allowed' the luxury of rest for in our final years?  Or do we just work until we drop because the economy needs it?

 

1 hour ago, Guillaume Hamon said:

Life expectancy is one thing but life expectancy in great health conditions is different. In France for males I recently saw the second one was 65 yo so barely a year above the new retirement age... And that's just the average age, many already lost a decent health before 65 yo because of decades of doing tough jobs, hereditary health conditions, lifetime with an incapacity to follow an healthy diverse organic diet since it would be too big of a grocery bill etc etc...

Also in France where public money money is often wasted folks don't want to hear they need to work more to balance a budget. They want this waste be fixed + the many frauds to finally be seriously fought before they're asked an effort. Mainly the ones who got difficult jobs... These specific folks didn't get enough consideration/ adaptation in the making of this reform btw.

Plus let's not even mention a current minister admitting that this law would from his government would be disadvantageous for a part of french women indeed... Or¬†the lies¬†from the government about new rights the bill would bring to many when after verifications from experts & journalists it would only be available a limited number of beneficiaries in reality... I STOP THERE OR WE'RE THERE FOREVER! ūüėÜ

I'm aware of this. My comment wasn't to suggest it's fun to raise retirement age or it doesn't matter 

 

I'm simply stating a reality... That demographics have changed (and significantly) and it puts an enormous strain on the system without any reform

 

The fact that it sucks does not change the reality of the problem

 

Also this OP is about France... They have a lower retirement age than most developed Countries. I do not think 64 is unrealistic or unreasonable. We're not talking about a country raising it to 70 like a few have

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Economy
2 hours ago, Mother of Puppies said:

getting older doesn't necessarily mean that you're also healthier or fitter...

 

and in Germany it has been raised regularly...we're now at 67 soon to be 70

I'm aware of that

 

Again, the fact that our health span hasn't increased much does not change the situation

 

(That being said, while health span may not have not changed much working conditions have especially in blue collar jobs. U do not have to have as much strength now in most blue collar jobs as u used to making working an extra year or two more feasable)

 

I do think 70 is too much. But my comment was about France (the OP). I do not think 64 is unreasonable 

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Dennis

Retirement age at 64 is very reasonable compared to other countries. France has a huge fiscal problem and an ageing population. Something has to be done. Either taxes are raised on younger people or push the retirement age a few years. Unless someone has a better solution, please tell me. France already taxes the **** out of the wealthy. What else can Macron do?

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bionic
21 minutes ago, Economy said:

 

I'm aware of this. My comment wasn't to suggest it's fun to raise retirement age or it doesn't matter 

 

I'm simply stating a reality... That demographics have changed (and significantly) and it puts an enormous strain on the system without any reform

 

The fact that it sucks does not change the reality of the problem

 

Also this OP is about France... They have a lower retirement age than most developed Countries. I do not think 64 is unrealistic or unreasonable. We're not talking about a country raising it to 70 like a few have

I hope it didn't sound like I was coming for you and I hope you know I'd never do that. We all stan you here :vegas: 

 

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BBhomemaker
Posted (edited)

First of all for the fact that others countries got their retirement age up to 67 doesn't mean we have to adopt this as well, we are our own country. We have to right to not agreeing with it and reject it. French people agree that we should change our system of pension, we just don't want that one. 

Also the first permanent contract in france is obtained by an average age of 27yo, (it was 22yo 15years ago), so how can french people contribute enough to even retreat by the age of 64yo with a decent amount of living.  

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Bat
12 minutes ago, BBhomemaker said:

First of all for the fact that others countries got their retirement age up to 67 doesn't mean we have to adopt this as well, we are our own country.

Except you don't get to choose if France will go bankrupt because everyone is either in pension or striking :ohwell:

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Economy
43 minutes ago, bionic said:

I hope it didn't sound like I was coming for you and I hope you know I'd never do that. We all stan you here :vegas: 

 

All good. Just healthy debate :legend:

 

A couple things that can help tho besides rising retirement age:

 

#1 More taxes on the wealthy. Definitely would help to a point. But important to remember ppl also want to do other stuff with that as well. Like more Healthcare funding, infrastructure, social safety Nets, more education etc. The amount of purchasing power that needs to be redistributed to make up for shrinking work force relative to Population is significant so relying on the wealthy alone without other reforms as well means that if you manage to convince governments to tax wealthy more, there wouldn't be much left for other "priorities" people also want. There's a pie and there's a limit to the amount of recourses that can be sliced

 

#2 increased Automation can offset some of the decline in active people in workforce but then this has to be embraced (and ppls skills prepared for it). Ppl often resist the idea of automation but in an ageing society where a higher percentage of people exist not working, being able to produce more per worker with automated technology is exactly what we need to maintain standard of living and being able to produce the same amount of goods and services that can be consumed per citizen!

 

I think for now it may be doable to keep it in a 65-67 range roughly but for a few countries that have had unusually low retirement ages like Japan, China and in this case France I think intense scrutiny of whether the benefits of keeping it that low vs the strain it will have on the system is worth it... Cuz if it impacts the system too much, ur basically trading getting to retire a couple years earlier to an economic system struggling more your entire life if it reaches that tipping point. To me it doesn't seem like a very good trade off for your entire life as a whole 

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Dennis
5 minutes ago, Bat said:

Except you don't get to choose if France will go bankrupt because everyone is either in pension or striking :ohwell:

It is just sad that people don't take the prospect of financial insolvency seriously. Even here in the U.S, we do have that risk. Once a country reaches that level, it's done, it's over. Recovery is very very hard. Ask Greece and Argentina (and to a lesser extent Italy now).

The far-right (Marine Le Pen) and the far-left (France Insoumise) want to destroy France with their stupid populism.

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BBhomemaker
8 minutes ago, Bat said:

Except you don't get to choose if France will go bankrupt because everyone is either in pension or striking :ohwell:

So that's the only options we got ? Submit or suffer ? 

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bionic
5 minutes ago, Economy said:

All good. Just healthy debate :legend:

 

A couple things that can help tho besides rising retirement age:

 

#1 More taxes on the wealthy. Definitely would help to a point. But important to remember ppl also want to do other stuff with that as well. Like more Healthcare funding, infrastructure, social safety Nets, more education etc. The amount of purchasing power that needs to be redistributed to make up for shrinking work force relative to Population is significant so relying on the wealthy alone without other reforms as well means that if you manage to convince governments to tax wealthy more, there wouldn't be much left for other "priorities" people also want. There's a pie and there's a limit to the amount of recourses that can be sliced

 

#2 increased Automation can offset some of the decline in active people in workforce but then this has to be embraced (and ppls skills prepared for it). Ppl often resist the idea of automation but in an ageing society where a higher percentage of people exist not working, being able to produce more per worker with automated technology is exactly what we need to maintain standard of living and being able to produce the same amount of goods and services that can be consumed per citizen!

And lets not forget the dreaded 'i' word would bring in taxpaying labor

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monketsharona
26 minutes ago, BBhomemaker said:

First of all for the fact that others countries got their retirement age up to 67 doesn't mean we have to adopt this as well, we are our own country. We have to right to not agreeing with it and reject it. French people agree that we should change our system of pension, we just don't want that one. 

Also the first permanent contract in france is obtained by an average age of 27yo, (it was 22yo 15years ago), so how can french people contribute enough to even retreat by the age of 64yo with a decent amount of living.  

I'm 31 and still not in a permanent work contrat, and don't find it while working for years, so...

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Economy
1 minute ago, bionic said:

And lets not forget the dreaded 'i' word would bring in taxpaying labor

Sorry I did not get this reference wdym? :sweat:

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BBhomemaker
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Dennis said:

It is just sad that people don't take the prospect of financial insolvency seriously. Even here in the U.S, we do have that risk. Once a country reaches that level, it's done, it's over. Recovery is very very hard. Ask Greece and Argentina (and to a lesser extent Italy now).

The far-right (Marine Le Pen) and the far-left (France Insoumise) want to destroy France with their stupid populism.

What is sad is that a president, from a so called "democratic" country has to force his reform, despite french people disagreeing, use an article that totally shut down any vote from the people or the assembly, shut down any opposition, any talks (and its not even the first time). Basically doing whatever he wants... but yeah democracy right? 

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BBhomemaker
4 minutes ago, monketsharona said:

I'm 31 and still not in a permanent work contrat, and don't find it while working for years, so...

I'm 24, i'm a temp, waiting for a fixed-term contract

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