Romania reacts to Ukraine economically exploiting Danube canal, damaging UNESCO site

[FfFfFfFF 58,120]

27 minutes ago, Gogo Yubari said:

I personally don't think you're trying to spread Russian propaganda. But it can be read this way, especially with the other thread. 

You do have a legitimate point, Ukraine has a lot of issues that separate them from most European countries and are being opportunistic with events like you one you mentioned while they can. Though I think the priority is getting the Ukraine state and its people to survive first, which I feel is very valid.

I'm wondering though if Ukraine wins the war and becomes more westernized, it might change how it treats the environment and ethnic minorities, especially if it joins the EU. 

In theory, if Romania helps Ukraine win the war (which it has), this issue might gradually resolve itself by virtue of Ukraine aligning with the EU. It's not an immediate fix but it's definitely a good start.

 

Russia is finished militarily. We achieved the situation where Ukraine can survive, Kyiv is Ukrainian and no Russian offensive can change this given Russia's state today. The war is over in this sense.

The war continues because Ukraine does not want only survival, but its lost provinces and Crimea. Which is hypocritical because Ukraine itself enlarged at the expense of its neighbours in the past and ALL countries lost land.

[Dennis 8,391]

6 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

The war continues because Ukraine does not want only survival, but its lost provinces and Crimea. Which is hypocritical because Ukraine itself enlarged at the expense of its neighbours in the past and ALL countries lost land.

Nevermind, I retract my previous statement. This user is actually now pushing russian propaganda, blaming Ukraine for the continuation of the war and calling them hypocritical for trying to defend themselves from an aggressor.

[FfFfFfFF 58,120]

5 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Nevermind, I retract my previous statement. This user is actually now pushing russian propaganda, blaming Ukraine for the continuation of the war and calling them hypocritical for trying to defend themselves from an aggressor.

Ukraine stepped out of the peace negociations in April after retaking Kyiv because it saw it may have the means to retake all provinces. This is the prime reason the war goes on.

[Dennis 8,391]

4 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

Ukraine stepped out of the peace negociations in April after retaking Kyiv because it saw it may have the means to retake all provinces. This is the prime reason the war goes on.

I don't have time to deal with your nonsense at this point. If there's any sanity left in this place, then I leave it to the mods to deal with you rather than wasting my time.

It's just shameful that I'm reading a post that blames Ukraine for the war, rather than the troops that continue to occupy Ukraine, on GagaDaily out of all places. I could've mistaken this for 4chan or something. But a new low I guess.

[FfFfFfFF 58,120]

Just now, Dennis said:

I don't have time to deal with your nonsense at this point. If there's any sanity left in this place, then I leave it to the mods to deal with you rather than wasting my time.

It's just shameful that I'm reading a post that blames Ukraine for the war, rather than the troops that continue to occupy Ukraine, on GagaDaily out of all places. I could've mistaken this for 4chan or something. But a new low I guess.

No comebacks just talk over how this is all just propaganda and how Ukraine cannot remotely accept ceding land even though all Ukraine's neighbours also ceded land. Despite the fact that you would agree Palestine and Israel would need to make mutual concessions but God forbid I say the same about Ukraine. What else could I expect from someone who already decided the narrative?

[Illuminati 15,965]

13 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

The war continues because Ukraine does not want only survival, but its lost provinces and Crimea. Which is hypocritical because Ukraine itself enlarged at the expense of its neighbours in the past and ALL countries lost land.

I love this take. Well actually we should redivide all of Europe because 1000 years ago the borders were different.

Forget the decades of attempts to establish collaboration through European Union and to preserve Europe as it is for mutual benefit. Forget that the only reason Romania is in NATO was because it resolved its land claims with Ukraine. Dismantle everything and let everyone have a piece of each other.

4 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

Ukraine stepped out of the peace negociations in April after retaking Kyiv because it saw it may have the means to retake all provinces. This is the prime reason the war goes on.

Lets pretend that they had a real chance at peace and that the country wasn't being bombed literally at the same time as Ukraine was negotiating with Russia despite being promised ceasefire.

Maybe Russia won't invade one of its neighbors the 5th time.

Your faux pacifist take ignores everything that happened in the past year.

---

Considering Ukraine's well documented struggle with grain exports I could see why they are sacrificing fragile relations with Romania to secure a safer path for exports. Do I think it's right? No, but I also didn't think EU rolling back their climate goals and returning to coal was right either, they did it out of necessity.

[Dennis 8,391]

11 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

Despite the fact that you would agree Palestine and Israel would need to make mutual concessions but God forbid I say the same about Ukraine. What else could I expect from someone who already decided the narrative?

If anyone here said that the only reason the war is continuing and palestinians keep dying is because Palestinians refuse to live under Israeli occupation and accept israeli sovereignity over them, like you just did with Ukraine, they would've been out of this place a while ago already, and rightfully so. That's all I'm gonna say.

[FfFfFfFF 58,120]

8 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

Forget that the only reason Romania is in NATO was because it resolved its land claims with Ukraine. Dismantle everything and let everyone have a piece of each other.

Exactly, Romania had to come to terms to losing lands to Ukraine for peace and good relations with Ukraine and to be let into NATO. Why Ukraine cannot also come to terms with losing lands for peace and re-establishing relations with Russia and integrating into Europe? All countries were born this way, literally almost ALL countries, why is Ukraine that one special case when this is out of the picture? 

13 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

Lets pretend that they had a real chance at peace and that the country wasn't being bombed literally at the same time as Ukraine was negotiating with Russia despite being promised ceasefire.

Maybe Russia won't invade one of its neighbors the 5th time.

Neither Ukraine and Rusia gave a fair shot to the ceasefire especially as negociations ceased after April. Russia cannot pose a threat to Kyiv and/or central Ukraine, this is the time to ask for more peace instead of more war.

[FfFfFfFF 58,120]

13 minutes ago, Dennis said:

If anyone here said that the only reason the war is continuing and palestinians keep dying is because Palestinians refuse to live under Israeli occupation and accept israeli sovereignity over them, like you just did with Ukraine, they would've been out of this place a while ago already, and rightfully so. That's all I'm gonna say.

I genuienly don't get what you want to say, not being ironical, but I just don't understand. You said you believe in a two state solution in Israel, meaning you agree for peace Palestine needs to come to terms to not existing in its desire form and accepting the Israeli population (who emigrated from Europe, North America etc) onto them. I said that for peace Ukraine also needs to come to terms to also not existing in its desired form and accepting to let some of its lost provinces go. 

How this is scary scandalous thing I don't get. Besides the WW1 and WW2 all wars ended in negociated settlements. The other option is for Russia to capitulate which would happen through WW3.

[FfFfFfFF 58,120]

35 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

 

Your faux pacifist take ignores everything that happened in the past year.

 

In the past year Ukraine went from entertaining the idea of remaining neutral (March https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/03/ukraine-considers-neutrality-will-putin-respond) to blocking any and all concesions, and making it clear it wants Crimea back (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64662184

What happened in the past year is that we became radicalized. We only consume Western media. We only see Russia's attrocities and want Rusia to pay for injustices. All while Russia never sees our side and is only concerned about itself. And this in turn leads to more divergence, more war. Neither side has it in itself to put an end to the war until the other capitulates.

[Illuminati 15,965]

Just now, FfFfFfFF said:

Exactly, Romania had to come to terms to losing lands to Ukraine for peace and good relations with Ukraine and to be let into NATO. Why Ukraine cannot also come to terms with losing lands for peace and re-establishing relations with Russia and integrating into Europe? All countries were born this way, literally almost ALL countries, why is Ukraine that one special case when this is out of the picture? 

Neither Ukraine and Rusia gave a fair shot to the ceasefire especially as negociations ceased after April. Russia cannot pose a threat to Kyiv and/or central Ukraine, this is the time to ask for more peace instead of more war.

Romania first renounced its claims on Moldova and Snake Island, then changed their mind about their claims in Ukraine's territory and won most of the land in the Black Sea they requested in the international court. Both sides were happy with the ruling and moved past it.

There's no need to act like Ukraine is just dying to swallow entire countries near it because that's not historically accurate. They aren't torturing the Romanians who live in Ukraine, so the comparison to what Russia is currently doing is insulting to say the least.

Have you forgotten that every single citizen in Russian occupied territories is subjected to "filtration camps" (as Russia calls them) after which they are placed to forced labor camps and prisons, tortured, mutilated and in some cases castrated? Are we just going to sleep on the mass civilian graves and torture rooms found in every single reclaimed territory?

You act like this is a matter of drawing a line in the map and ignore the genocidal aspect of this war that will only invite more of this in the future if Russia is allowed to do it again. This also sets the precedent to what will happen in Taiwan for example and your solution is to hand it over.

18 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

What happened in the past year is that we became radicalized. We only consume Western media. We only see Russia's attrocities and want Rusia to pay for injustices. All while Russia never sees our side and is only concerned about itself. And this in turn leads to more divergence, more war. Neither side has it in itself to put an end to the war until the other capitulates.

Lets look at the Russian side then. In the past year alone Russian state media and all relevant government officials have threatened Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Moldova, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Romania with future invasions and your resolve is to give into these demands because we're greedy to want to remain independent.

[FfFfFfFF 58,120]

55 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

Romania first renounced its claims on Moldova and Snake Island, then changed their mind about their claims in Ukraine's territory and won most of the land in the Black Sea they requested in the international court. Both sides were happy with the ruling and moved past it.

 

False. Budjak and Chernivski are both Ukrainian, most of the disputed land Romania renounced before becoming part of NATO is part of Ukraine. The 2000s dispute was over maritime area and the Hague Court gave Romania 80% of it (nowadays 80% of Ukraine is controlled by Kyiv and less than 20% by Moscow too, so Ukraine already controls a bigger percentage of its claims than Romania was given at Hague).

55 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

There's no need to act like Ukraine is just dying to swallow entire countries near it because that's not historically accurate. They aren't torturing the Romanians who live in Ukraine, so the comparison to what Russia is currently doing is insulting to say the least.

The UN recognized war crimes happened in both camps. Of course we hear about Russia's ones (they are probably more numerous), but Ukraine did it too, it's war. The point is, Romania had to renounce its claim on Chernivski before becoming a NATO member so Ukraine can renounce its claim on Crimea before becoming a NATO member too (Crimea is made up of Russians). According to Reuters, there are, regretabilly, about 9k civilian casualities so far so the notion that Russia wants to kill all Ukrainians is, forgive me, propaganda. What Russia is doing probably counts as genocide, but to say all people in the occupied regions are about to get killed is a very big exageration.

55 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

 

Lets look at the Russian side then. In the past year alone Russian state media and all relevant government officials have threatened Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Moldova, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Romania with future invasions and your resolve is to give into these demands because we're greedy to want to remain independent.

They can't even occupy the McDonalds in Kyiv. They can't invade any of these countries, apart from maybe a coup in Moldova, maybe Georgia if we are being generous to Russia's capabilities. We either have a negociated settlement or make Russia capitulate. To make Russia capitulate would require a nuclear regime to crumble and honestly pray from the world when we reach that stage.

[Illuminati 15,965]

4 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

False. Budjak and Chernivski are both Ukrainian, most of the disputed land Romania renounced before becoming part of NATO is part of Ukraine. The 2000s dispute was over maritime area and the Hague Court gave Romania 80% of it (nowadays 80% of Ukraine is controlled by Kyiv and less than 20% by Moscow too, so Ukraine already controls a bigger percentage of its claims than Romania was given at Hague).

The UN recognized war crimes happened in both camps. Of course we hear about Russia's ones (they are probably more numerous), but Ukraine did it too, it's war. The point is, Romania had to renounce its claim on Chernivski before becoming a NATO member so Ukraine can renounce its claim on Crimea before becoming a NATO member too (Crimea is made up of Russians)

They can't even occupy the McDonalds in Kyiv. They can't invade any of these countries, apart from maybe a coup in Moldova, maybe Georgia if we are being generous to Russia's capabilities. We either have a negociated settlement or make Russia capitulate. To make Russia capitulate would require a nuclear regime to crumble and honestly pray from the world when we reach that stage.

The dispute I'm talking about was settled in international court and did not include Budjak or Chernivski. Again, your insistence to compare this to what Russia is doing right now is appalling. This isn't just a matter of settling the dividing line, EVERYONES lives behind that line will be dramatically affected, nobody who fled will be able to safely return home. But also, like Romania, Russia renounced all claims to Crimea before 2014 and was greatly compensated for it. Crimea had autonomy and Russia was able to use its ports as part of a lease deal signed with Ukraine.

Need I remind you that Russia invaded on the pretext of making Luhansk and Donetsk independent republics? So at most the 20 percent of "the war in Donbas" should be counted from there. They added Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson and anything else they could grab later on when they revealed that the invasion had nothing to do with liberating Donbas, or NATO "expansion".

Russia signed various treaties with Ukraine over the years meant to assure Ukraine's territorial integrity and received all of Ukrainian nukes in return. The peaceful solution that you expect here has already been explored and failed. Every. single. time. It is no surprise why every East European country has begged NATO to accept them and why Romania chose to be content with what they have because the threat of losing it to Russia was greater than the need to fight neighbors over those disputed borders that have long lost their original significance.

What makes Ukraine's case different is that Crimea is being used as the launch pad for attacking Ukraine and it will ALWAYS be used that way under current Russian regime. Crimea AND Kaliningrad are almost exclusively used for military purposes. The newly annexed territories only expand the border Ukraine has to share with Russia which means Ukraine can be attacked from even more places in the future. Russia wants to extend that border all the way to Transnistria and surround Ukraine from every side it can get.

And Ukraine understands that, they understand what sets this war apart. It's why you see every single person trying to "do their part" in various forms even if they can't go out into the frontlines because they know they are fighting for their lives, not just meters of land.

Regarding both sides media:

You need to look for yourself for those "both sides" of media and look at what Russia is actually celebrating and is proud of in this war. They aren't even being subtle when every torture video is met with cheers, when they refuse to acknowledge those they're "liberating" as humans and when they admit that the war in Ukraine, if it succeeds, will only be the beginning of reclaiming what "belongs" to Russia.

For someone who pretends to be so detached from "western propaganda" you fall for the false narrative that Russia is done forever. Even North Korea, one of the most isolated places on Earth is capable of militarizing their entire country. Putin is probably relieved that the mobilization didn't result in any significant revolt because he can take it a few steps further now.

Lastly, I guarantee if in some universe this ended in a complete Ukrainian defeat and Russia was back once more, invading one of the smaller NATO countries, you would be looking for a contrarian anti-westoid narrative again. Probably looking up tweets about that country deserving to be invaded and how sacrificing the entire Baltics, Moldova and northern part of Poland is actually a good 20% compromise to not escalate the war further.

 

This is a long comment because I wanted to lay all of my ideas out and be done with this conversation.

[Dennis 8,391]

7 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

Again, your insistence to compare this to what Russia is doing right now is appalling.

Yeah I've tried to reason with this person for months, to no avail. They've become even more extreme in their position. Today is probably the first time I see them shamelessly blame Ukraine for the war, rather than the invading russian forces. Just unbelievable. Every now and then they'll soften their tone a little, but I think anyone who's read enough of his posts know by now that he just has an obsession with smearing Ukraine. I just don't know what's there to envy about people being constantly bombed and killed. Why does he feel the need to add to that.

[FfFfFfFF 58,120]

4 hours ago, Illuminati said:

The dispute I'm talking about was settled in international court and did not include Budjak or Chernivski.

The dispute I am talking about did. Even if Russia recognized Ukraine's borders in the past it's clear that Ukraine and Russia are in a border dispute now. Why can the prevailing thought about Israel and Palestine be "Look, Israel you need to give up some" and "Palestine, you need to give up some" in order to achieve peace and coexistince but this is absolutely unacceptable in Ukraine?

4 hours ago, Illuminati said:

 

 

Need I remind you that Russia invaded on the pretext of making Luhansk and Donetsk independent republics? So at most the 20 percent of "the war in Donbas" should be counted from there. They added Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson and anything else they could grab later on when they revealed that the invasion had nothing to do with liberating Donbas, or NATO "expansion".

 

There is room to argue the exact settlements, what provinces should remain Russian, under what conditions etc, yes, but if Ukraine made the goal to retake Crimea and not cede anything this means the war will go on until Russia collapses as there is no other scenario compatibile with accepting letting Crimea go.

5 hours ago, Illuminati said:

 

What makes Ukraine's case different is that Crimea is being used as the launch pad for attacking Ukraine and it will ALWAYS be used that way under current Russian regime. Crimea AND Kaliningrad are almost exclusively used for military purposes. The newly annexed territories only expand the border Ukraine has to share with Russia which means Ukraine can be attacked from even more places in the future. Russia wants to extend that border all the way to Transnistria and surround Ukraine from every side it can.

You need to look for yourself for those "both sides" of media and look at what Russia is actually celebrating and is proud of in this war. They aren't even being subtle when every torture video is met with cheers, when they refuse to acknowledge those they're "liberating" as humans and when they admit that the war in Ukraine, if it succeeds, will only be the beginning of reclaiming what "belongs" to Russia.

For someone who pretends to be so detached from "western propaganda" you fall for the false narrative that Russia is done forever. Even North Korea, one of the most isolated places on Earth is capable of militarizing their entire country. Putin is probably relieved that the mobilization didn't result in any significant revolt because he can take it a few steps further now.

 

Do you seriously think there are no Ukrainians celebrating when Russians are dying? That Ukraine did not commit some war crimes (UN did rcognize instances of war crimes on the Ukrainian side it). Of course Ukraine will always be the good guys and Russia the bad guys but let's think critically for a minute: this is a war which both sides want to win.

Transnistria is also probably finally about to crumble on its own in the following years because it can't sustain itself isolated from Russia. The frontlines remained unchanged since September and this is because both sides are exhausted. Russia expected to occupy Ukraine and move on to the other countries by now but as you can see the reality on the ground is different.. Russia didn't dare to try to fly missile over NATO countries, what NATO should do is focusing on bringing Moldova and Georgia in if it wants their safety as despite what they claim Russia is indeed scared of it.