Macron will not ask for ‘forgiveness’ over the colonization of Algeria

[Dennis 8,391]

21 minutes ago, dit said:

I NEVER said other colonies were nice. Where did I say that? I said that Algeria's colonization was brutal. The ones you mentioned were also insanely brutal. Two things can be true at the same time. Nice deflection.

And there is no singling out France. We are calling out a lot of these countries to FACE THEIR PAST and to formally apologies to the nations their colonized. LOADS of countries have done it. Why should we not expect it out of France too and pressure it to do so as well. Formal apologies are symbolic gestures that pave the way to better relations. This is why you see TONS of European parliments targetting Turkey to apologieze and recognize its massacres of the Armenians. It is needed to heal relations and to acknowledge past atrocities. 

That's it. 

I didn't say you said it, I asked if you think that the other colonizers were nicer, because the "especially" brutal part makes it sound like what happened in Algeria was much worse than the rest. So I wanted to point out that most other occupation are as brutal if not more, and that singling out France is hypocritical. 

I agree with you that apologies are good symbolic gestures. And what bothers me is that all we can achieve today as humanity is nothing but symbolic gestures, fake morality. No concrete actions whatsoever on trying to prevent history from repeating itself again. How many statements, U.N resolutions condemned aggression and genocide? And how many concrete actions were taken to stop them? You see Russia trying to recolonize Ukraine, and most of the world doesn't care. China is trying to recolonize Taiwan and some even justify and defend such intentions. So it's much easier to criticize the past than to do something about the present. That's my point. I'm just sick and tired of these hollow statements nations issue every now and then to apologize for this and condemn that. I want the same energy for concrete actions on how to reduce suffering in the world.

[lasagna 3,392]

2 hours ago, alecks said:

I mean, it’s not very sound logic to blame people alive today for something their ancestors did. Imagine someone demanding you pay back money your great grandfather stole? Or even someone as recent as your father stole? Yes, it was wrong, but can you change the past?

nobody blames people alive today for what their ancestors done but generational wealth is real. if you have ancestors who stole wealth from colonized people then you're at an advantage in terms of schools, jobs, just general opportunities (we've seen something similar to this with the recent nepotism babies discourse.) i can guarantee you jamie lee curtises grand children will have no financial problems just like how she started out with no financial problems given the wealth her parents had accumulated.

the immense wealth stolen from colonized countries can be / is passed down for generations in the same way that people whos ancestors had wealth stolen from them are likely at a socioeconomic disadvantage now. people just want to make things right

[dit 46,738]

16 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I didn't say you said it, I asked if you think that the other colonizers were nicer, because the "especially" brutal part makes it sound like what happened in Algeria was much worse than the rest. So I wanted to point out that most other occupation are as brutal if not more, and that singling out France is hypocritical. 

I agree with you that apologies are good symbolic gestures. And what bothers me is that all we can achieve today as humanity is nothing but symbolic gestures, fake morality. No concrete actions whatsoever on trying to prevent history from repeating itself again. How many statements, U.N resolutions condemned aggression and genocide? And how many concrete actions were taken to stop them? You see Russia trying to recolonize Ukraine, and most of the world doesn't care. China is trying to recolonize Taiwan and some even justify and defend such intentions. So it's much easier to criticize the past than to do something about the present. That's my point. I'm just sick and tired of these hollow statements nations issue every now and then to apologize for this and condemn that. I want the same energy for concrete actions on how to reduce suffering in the world.

Now this is something I absolutely agree with you on. I too get frustrated that all we have to cling onto are symbolic gestures and apologies but for the powerless like you and I, this is the best we can root for I guess all while also trying to point out at the atrocities committed everywhere in present time. 

This is why it frustrates me when ppl try to dismiss this. I know tons of Algeriens and how this topic is especially touchy to them. Their parents were alive during this. French colonization ended only in the 60s....it's too recent for us to be dismissive or hyperanalytitical about it. It's also cruel of a Western beacon of morality like France to flat out say it will simply not apologize. It's not being singled out. Tons of other countries globally are asked to do the exact same thing and many of them have followed suit which has led a road to healing. France is purposely keeping this wound open for so many Algerians and at this point it is out of cheer cruelty. 

This is the main reason a lot of us push for formal apologies. Yes it,s nothing but symbolic gestures BUT they do provide some form of healing AND realistically its the only thing us regular people can try to succesfully push for. We've seen how pressure has actually worked and many nations have apologized for various atrocities committed. I think this is not too much to ask of France.

[ANVEEROY 65,226]

7 hours ago, Rat Boy said:

Omg are there people here minimising the impacts of colonisation?? As a POC, some people will never understand how actions that happened many years ago are still impacting us today.

As also a POC, I agree with you. These people will never understand and stay ignorant. 

[FfFfFfFF 58,106]

5 hours ago, Melancholia said:

i mean the kingdom of denmark still exists... as does the kingdom of sweden. every former power exists in some form. the issue is that it's almost never-ending. everyone is owed reparations from somebody. however vicious, disgusting and abysmal it is, war and murder is something human beings have been doing for millennia.

True, but those countries are not the Vikings. 

[FfFfFfFF 58,106]

6 hours ago, alecks said:

I mean, it’s not very sound logic to blame people alive today for something their ancestors did. Imagine someone demanding you pay back money your great grandfather stole? Or even someone as recent as your father stole? Yes, it was wrong, but can you change the past?

By that logic you could also say gay people have a case for demanding reparations for all the hate crimes they suffered for centuries, as well as the millions that died in the Holocaust. 

Well countries have international debt. You as a citizen of a country are already paying tax money for stuff your acestors and previous generations did. 

[thisguyN 616]

I can’t even fathom there are people here who whitewash colonialism and deny the responsibility it brings for their successive states. It is sad, and if I can be honest without being disrespectful, it is actually disgusting. 

[Better Day 5,766]

6 hours ago, ALGAYDO said:

Is this really the hill you’re willing to die on? 

Yes, empires has existed for a millennia or more, it was unfortunately a necessary evil. 

[Better Day 5,766]

7 hours ago, Zaskar said:

White people here justifying colonisation!!

Disgusting!

And no, it's not "happened in past". It's very recent. Some of my parents generation have lived through it.

The effect of it broke our country and we still suffer its horrors. The brit colonisation affects every aspects of our life even today.

Have some shame you people and better remain silent on this if you don't have anything better to say. 

 

It did have very recent, but it happened for thousands of years. It was a dog eat dog world back in those days. Can I ask - is your country part of the Commonwealth of Nations? 

[Better Day 5,766]

4 hours ago, lasagna said:

you CANNOT be serious

in terms of the britain they still illegally occupy land in ireland and also committed genocide through a deliberate potato famine and then basically done the exact same and divided up india and pakistan and once again committed genocide through a deliberate famine.

britain owes so much to these countries along with the endless other countries they've colonized and committed atrocities in.

these are events that are not in the past as there are people still alive today that are negatively affected by what britain done.

Yet, the people of Northern Ireland are mostly keen staying part of the UK and I recognise this as someone who hates the UK and would love a breakup of it. How is it “illegal” when the officially country name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and recognised throughout the world and the UN. 

[Dennis 8,391]

I will say if you live in a country that you think is responsable for some historical atrocities and you are really passionate about righting these wrongs, there's a lot you can do without having to wait for your government. 

For example, consider monthly donations to organizations that operate in those countries. Talk is cheap. But we can make a difference with actions that have tangible effects. Don't champion a cause but say oh let others pay the bill. Take the initiative. This is how the world can really change, beyond words and apologies.

[LOVEDRUG 11,254]

48 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

True, but those countries are not the Vikings. 

the land controlled by the vikings was controlled by the king of denmark. the vikings were just a name for the warriors and combat techniques they used at the time. this is how danish kings ended up on the english throne for a period of time.

[FfFfFfFF 58,106]

1 hour ago, Melancholia said:

the land controlled by the vikings was controlled by the king of denmark. the vikings were just a name for the warriors and combat techniques they used at the time. this is how danish kings ended up on the english throne for a period of time.

And land controlled by the Roman Empire is now controlled by Turkey and Iraq. The fact that two countries have the same territory doesn't mean they are the same or that have continuity. The Vikings that controlled Britain are not polities that still exist or that have continuity into the present day.

[FfFfFfFF 58,106]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

I will say if you live in a country that you think is responsable for some historical atrocities and you are really passionate about righting these wrongs, there's a lot you can do without having to wait for your government. 

For example, consider monthly donations to organizations that operate in those countries. Talk is cheap. But we can make a difference with actions that have tangible effects. Don't champion a cause but say oh let others pay the bill. Take the initiative. This is how the world can really change, beyond words and apologies.

What are the Native American organization that you donate to as an US citizen? Amazing that you do donate your salary to them, but spread the word to us too!

[LOVEDRUG 11,254]

Just now, FfFfFfFF said:

And land controlled by the Roman Empire is now controlled by Turkey and Iraq. The fact that two countries have the same territory doesn't mean they are the same or that have continuity. The Vikings that controlled Britain are not polities that still exist or that have continuity into the present day.

complete false equivalency. whilst rome didn't turn into iraq or turkey, the denmark then and the denmark now are literally the same state. whilst there may have been governmental reform or changes internally, 'the kingdom of denmark' we see today is not some other state, there's a direct, unbroken line of kings going back to the kings who invaded britain, the same argument of 'it was your ancestors' used to award responsibility for slavery and colonialism onto people alive today.