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Zelensky: Ban Russian Travelers


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JRCF29

Ukrainian President Vladmyr Zelensky told the Washington Post Monday that Western leaders should restrict travel from Russian nationals and accused everyday Russians of enabling Putin's administration. From Politico

"In an interview with the Washington Post, Zelensky argued that the current sanctions on Russia are 'weak' compared to the message that would be sent by a travel ban and a total embargo on Russian energy.

...

"Zelensky was clear that all Russians should shoulder some blame for Putin's lethal war. 'They'll say, "This [war] has nothing to do with us. The whole population can't be held responsible, can it?" It can. The population picked this government and they're not fighting it, not arguing with it, not shouting at it,' he said." 

Election experts and investigative journalists routinely raise doubts about the fairness of Russian elections, and spontaneous protests in major Russian cities during the early stages of the invasion were quickly broken up by police forces. 

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I used to think like that too. But I think having delved into russian social media circles in recent months has changed my perspective. I think we in the West are being a little naive in how we think

Ehhhhhh I don't really think this should be pinned on the average Russian citizen. I have many Russian friends and they in no shape or form endorse the war. I'm willing to hear people out but 

How does this compare to the iraq war? Ukraine is on the defensive side of a genocidal war. This is not U.S banning people who disagreed with its own offensive war. Such a rule doesn't even have

Mindblown

Ehhhhhh I don't really think this should be pinned on the average Russian citizen. I have many Russian friends and they in no shape or form endorse the war. I'm willing to hear people out but :green:

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Dennis

While I don't support a blanket ban, I support making a rule that bans people who are known to have shown support for the war from entering western countries.

For example in America, they already check your social media, ask you questions and can even check your phone etc, before letting you in. If a russian is found to be supportive of the war they should be denied entry.

One thing Zelensky is right about is that yes a strong majority of russians support Putin and support this war, regardless of whether the elections are fair or not. Multiple polls done in Russia, including ones done by reliable firms, point out to strong support for this war.
An example below of the type of people that should be first in line to be denied entry/visas.

 

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gumzy3000
9 minutes ago, Dennis said:

While I don't support a blanket ban, I support making a rule that bans people who are known to have shown support for the war from entering western countries.

For example in America, they already check your social media, ask you questions and can even check your phone etc, before letting you in. If a russian is found to be supportive of the war they should be denied entry.

One thing Zelensky is right about is that yes a strong majority of russians support Putin and support this war, regardless of whether the elections are fair or not. Multiple polls done in Russia, including ones done by reliable firms, point out to strong support for this war.

I am so against this honestly. Imagine the US did this in 2004 when the invasion of Iraq happened. Border patrol would harass and threaten any foreign visitor who opposed the war. They would be denied entry and it essentially limits free speech. 

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Aussie

Zelensky sure is turning every stone and grabbing every chance to hurt Russia. I just hope his words do not end up infuriating Putin even more. It’s a very difficult, dangerous situation and as much as I respect Zelesky and applaud him for all his efforts, I sincerely wish this to deescalate soon rather than get even worse. The fate of hundreds of millions is at stake. 🌻

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Aussie
1 hour ago, Mindblown said:

Ehhhhhh I don't really think this should be pinned on the average Russian citizen. I have many Russian friends and they in no shape or form endorse the war. I'm willing to hear people out but :green:

Agreed plus so many of them have no choice as they are bombarded with local propaganda and they can only trust and believe what they are told. 

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PartySick

No :triggered:

And that's it on that :triggered:

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Dennis
25 minutes ago, gumzy3000 said:

I am so against this honestly. Imagine the US did this in 2004 when the invasion of Iraq happened. Border patrol would harass and threaten any foreign visitor who opposed the war. They would be denied entry and it essentially limits free speech. 

How does this compare to the iraq war? Ukraine is on the defensive side of a genocidal war. This is not U.S banning people who disagreed with its own offensive war.

Such a rule doesn't even have to be implemented because U.S Immigration for example can deny visas based on "moral character" grounds. And definitely showing support for a genocidal invasion can meet that requirement and result in visa denial anyway.

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SamanthaC

The problem is the average Russian citizen that does support him is likely only because her is controlling so much of what news people receive there. How can people form an educated opinion when Putin’s propaganda is pushed and they don’t hear or see anything else truthful. I’m not okay with citizens being punished for something their leader is doing. Imagine if we punished American citizens for Trump’s actions. 

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Dennis
21 minutes ago, SamanthaC said:

The problem is the average Russian citizen that does support him is likely only because her is controlling so much of what news people receive there. How can people form an educated opinion when Putin’s propaganda is pushed and they don’t hear or see anything else truthful. I’m not okay with citizens being punished for something their leader is doing. Imagine if we punished American citizens for Trump’s actions. 

I used to think like that too. But I think having delved into russian social media circles in recent months has changed my perspective. I think we in the West are being a little naive in how we think about Russia. It's not the north korea regime where people don't have access to outside sources and can't form an educated opinion. While there is censorship, Youtube for example among other outlets are available in Russia. Telegram is completely uncensored, which is the biggest social media network in Russia. Any russian who wants to know the truth can easily access it if they have internet. I tend to compare them with Trump supporters, people who believe Trump, Fox News, ultra-right conspiracy theories despite having access to all the truthful information.

The simple reality is a lot of russians consciously support Putin, despite being fully aware of every single thing the West says. I've had even a few discussions with some russians just out of curiosity. I sent them western coverage, sources, etc to no avail. One of them even visited America recently and speaks fluent english. I had to block him recently because when I asked him about the castration of the Ukrainian POW video, he justified by saying that he was a "pedophile" (a lie of course). At that point, that was terrorism apology territory. Just because he is european doesn't mean he's not being an apologist for terrorism. And people like him should absolutely be denied visa. Muslims were wrongfully denied visas for much less! Similarly people who participated in the invasion should be denied visa. I can't stand the idea that somebody spends 4 months killing civilians in Ukraine then we just casually accept him in our country as if nothing happened.

What I absolutely oppose however is a blanket ban. There are a lot of good russians who want to flee Putin's regime and we should do everything possible to make it easier for them.

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theidlerwheel
1 hour ago, gumzy3000 said:

I am so against this honestly. Imagine the US did this in 2004 when the invasion of Iraq happened. Border patrol would harass and threaten any foreign visitor who opposed the war. They would be denied entry and it essentially limits free speech. 

I mean In this case though Russia is the aggressor attacking Ukraine unprovoked, it's not like 2003 where the US was the aggressor and invaded Iraq, I don't agree with some of what he said, I don't think Ukraine/Ukrainians owe Russia any grace.

Plus at the end of the day Russians trying to flee putin due to the war in Ukraine are not going to go to the war torn country that their country is attacking.

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SamanthaC
11 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I used to think like that too. But I think having delved into russian social media circles in recent months has changed my perspective. I think we in the West are being a little naive in how we think about Russia. It's not the north korea regime where people don't have access to outside sources and can't form an educated opinion. While there is censorship, Youtube for example among other outlets are available in Russia. Telegram is completely uncensored, which is the biggest social media network in Russia. Any russian who wants to know the truth can easily access it if they have internet. I tend to compare them with Trump supporters, people who believe Trump, Fox News, ultra-right conspiracy theories despite having access to all the truthful information.

The simple reality is a lot of russians consciously support Putin, despite being fully aware of every single thing the West says. I've had even a few discussions with some russians just out of curiosity. I sent them western coverage, sources, etc to no avail. One of them even visited America recently and speaks fluent english. I had to block him recently because when I asked him about the castration of the Ukrainian POW video, he justified by saying that he was a "pedophile" (a lie of course). At that point, that was terrorism apology territory. Just because he is european doesn't mean he's not being an apologist for terrorism. And people like him should absolutely be denied visa. Muslims were wrongfully denied visas for much less! Similarly people who participated in the invasion should be denied visa. I can't stand the idea that somebody spends 4 months killing civilians in Ukraine then we just casually accept him in our country as if nothing happened.

What I absolutely oppose however is a blanket ban. There are a lot of good russians who want to flee Putin's regime and we should do everything possible to make it easier for them.

So how would you prevent people like the person you mentioned earlier from entering? There is no way to be sure of someone’s stance. Having access to the internet doesn’t make you informed. Those people would need a reason to doubt what is happening. I don’t like this idea because people I know personally would be affected by a ban like this and I’m not okay with that. 

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Dennis
11 minutes ago, SamanthaC said:

So how would you prevent people like the person you mentioned earlier from entering? There is no way to be sure of someone’s stance. Having access to the internet doesn’t make you informed. Those people would need a reason to doubt what is happening. I don’t like this idea because people I know personally would be affected by a ban like this and I’m not okay with that. 

Personally I would support such a move to ban entry only when there is clear indication of support for the invasion. For example people posting on their social media, instagram etc messages/pictures supportive of the russian army's capture of ukrainian cities etc...

Nothing in Russia today forces you to post supportive messages on your social media. Being silent about the war is not criminalized. There's no excuse for people to openly support the war and the genocide of ukrainians. And if they do, maybe let them have a slap on the wrist in the form of a visa denial so that they think a little about their actions. Nobody is calling for their imprisonment upon landing. Visa is discretionary, not a right.

Similarly people who are known to have participated in the invasion should be vetted. The one exception is for people who genuinely regretted and took steps to leave the invading forces after discovering the truth.

One important thing to remember is that there is no general mobilization in Russia today. A lot of people join the invading forces because they're lured by the huge amounts of money they pay, (roughly 30-40 times the minimum wage in Russia).

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AnnaNicoleSmith
4 hours ago, JRCF29 said:

The population picked this government and they're not fighting it, not arguing with it, not shouting at it,' he said." 

Takes guts to do it. I think not many nation can do it. France is capable, US… many others but some just can’t. They stay silent in their corner too scared

i also think u can’t blame Zelensky for banning all Russians. They can’t trust the country anymore. Sure not everyone is « bad » but it’s better to ban everyone than to have to play the guessing game

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AnnaNicoleSmith
1 hour ago, SamanthaC said:

So how would you prevent people like the person you mentioned earlier from entering? There is no way to be sure of someone’s stance. Having access to the internet doesn’t make you informed. Those people would need a reason to doubt what is happening. I don’t like this idea because people I know personally would be affected by a ban like this and I’m not okay with that. 

It’s less worse than to lose your family in a bomb or deal with torture. It’s war not everyone can have it easy sadly. Especially when you’re a nation that doesn’t even fight for justice. If you can’t sacrifice your life for a better future you gotta deal with the little breadcrumbs. It’s terrible but I don’t see a way out for « good » Russians

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