5th Democratic Primary Debate Discussion

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

Honestly, so disaffected by politics these days. 

Joe Biden will probably just win the nomination, and if he does,  he won't get anything done and moderate democrats will scream "How did this happen!? I thought conservatives loved Joe!" Progressives will scream "we told you so." Then they'll say "where was all this criticism before!?" Luckily, the progressive movement will continue to take on the Democratic party, as as it stands, it is the  only way of actually creating change in this country that everyone says they wants, and that's about it  You want real, substantive acial justice? You want to justice for women? The LGBTQ+ community? Poor people? The working class? You won't get it with a Joe Biden or a Pete Buttigieg. These problems will remain unaddressed for decades to come with that kind of candidate, as long as corruption in politics remains, and the corporate elites control our political system.

Pete is not going to wrest 50% of the black electorate away from Joe Biden by winning in a state that has a population of only 3% black people (Iowa) or 1% (New Hampshire), I don't care about anything else he has said or done ultimately, the amount of change he would need to make to his campaign, staff, messaging, outreach, ads, fundraising, and ground campaign to do this would have to be absolutely massive and so far hes only dipped a toe in terms of what would be required.  To me, it's clear that  he knows he can't at this point, he's just running to be a name people remember in the future, and that's fine I guess. I don't bring this up because I dislike him, I bring it up because its true. If Pete Buttigieg had 0% white support, we would not be talking about him like we are, and yes there are more white voters, but it is a relevant point to make still, because the black vote is taken for granted, people don't have any real interest in fighting for our community, and people like Pete Buttigieg and Joe Biden directly benefit from this complicity - and so I will always oppose them.

Anyway, Klobuchar had some cute jokes that weren't garbage, but Cory calling Joe high was my favorite moment tbh.

[MJHolland 12,725]

2 minutes ago, Economy said:

Don't u know that in GGD (and the very extreme left in general) are completely intolerant of anyone's opinion but their own?

 

I don't even bother trying to have a civilized discussion with anyone on the extreme ends of the spectrum (same goes for far right wingers)...

 

You literally just cant. They are convinced they are all right and got all the right political answers and everyone else is all wrong

I don’t even think this is entirely true. I think that there is a vocal minority that spoils the reputation of the larger far left — almost all of whom have their heart in the right place. 
 

1 minute ago, Morphine Prince said:

This could be switched around.

It's almost as if we're in a primary and we must criticize each other. Wow. 

Morphine - I’ve looked to you for years on this site as being a sound voice of reason. You saw what happened 4 years ago when we were in a mess of a primary. I know you saw what this did and how it helped put a monster in the White House. 
 

I know the divisiveness comes from both sides of the party, but it comes down to each of us as individuals to stop it. Democrats are better than this. 
  

[Economy 52,861]

Just now, KleinGa said:

Im beginning to learn this right now on GGD. Anytime I remotely say one slight thing that is a slight criticism of Sanders, the left wing people here go bananas.

I've never had a productive conversation with them. They always accuse me of hating bernie/ their candidate anytime I say anything critical

I know it's annoying. It shows a totally unbalanced and almost cult like attitude

 

No human or politician is perfect and ppl can have specific things they don't agree with them on

 

Even the politicians that I've ever had the most in common I can't say I agree with everything. It doesn't mean im being hateful

 

I questioned before how I think some of Bernie's very left policies could potentially backfire and I was accused of being a Capitalist and Billionaire supporter and that I didn't understand the struggles of income inequality in America etc

 

Like I literally never said that wasn't an issue. Im giving an opinion on how I think some of his policies may not work (in my opinion)... Like calm down

 

Ppl are also very black and white with politics in my opinion like, the whole left vs right wing and one side supposibly being all bad and the other good, it is simplifying things too much. Things are not that simple

[Economy 52,861]

2 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

I don’t even think this is entirely true. I think that there is a vocal minority that spoils the reputation of the larger far left — almost all of whom have their heart in the right place. 
 

Morphine - I’ve looked to you for years on this site as being a sound voice of reason. You saw what happened 4 years ago when we were in a mess of a primary. I know you saw what this did and how it helped put a monster in the White House. 
 

I know the divisiveness comes from both sides of the party, but it comes down to each of us as individuals to stop it. Democrats are better than this. 
  

Not so sure. Most individuals I've met that are in the far end of either political side tend to be pretty set and have a tunnel vision on specific politics and will rarely consider anything outside of that reasonable

 

However how aggressive and hostile they are against others opinions vary from person to person

[Morphine Prince 109,683]

1 minute ago, MJHolland said:

Morphine - I’ve looked to you for years on this site as being a sound voice of reason. You saw what happened 4 years ago when we were in a mess of a primary. I know you saw what this did and how it helped put a monster in the White House. 
 

I know the divisiveness comes from both sides of the party, but it comes down to each of us as individuals to stop it. Democrats are better than this. 
  

Thanks for saying that, for some reason I thought you disliked me now   

4 years ago it was messy, YES, but it was a 2 person race. There was total polarity between two candidates. There's so many people now and it's just natural people will be criticized and called out. No candidate is perfect! 

There are certain people, a minority, who will end up not voting for the nominee, I'm sure.

That's not most people though. Not even on this site. If Joe Biden wins I'm sure most of this site will get out and vote for him no matter how bad of a candidate we may think he is. 

I just reject the notion we can't go after each other. Yes, we all have bias, but I think we can all discuss with civility. 

[MJHolland 12,725]

“I hate everyone always dunking on Bernie” 

*Sad reacts to literally every post on GGD that doesn’t perfectly align with their extreme ideology*

Ideologues are toxic af yall. 

[MJHolland 12,725]

1 minute ago, Morphine Prince said:

Thanks for saying that, for some reason I thought you disliked me now   

4 years ago it was messy, YES, but it was a 2 person race. There was total polarity between two candidates. There's so many people now and it's just natural people will be criticized and called out. No candidate is perfect! 

There are certain people, a minority, who will end up not voting for the nominee, I'm sure.

That's not most people though. Not even on this site. If Joe Biden wins I'm sure most of this site will get out and vote for him no matter how bad of a candidate we may think he is. 

I just reject the notion we can't go after each other. Yes, we all have bias, but I think we can all discuss with civility. 

Respectfully, I don’t understand why you think toxic and bad faith attacks thrown between 10 people is going to generate a better result than between 2 people.

This may be a competition, but not of these people are the enemy. When someone pulls ahead as the front runner, there will be no come to Jesus moment that happens with a flip of the switch. The work to unify the party happens NOW, not when our nominee is locked in the real shark tank with Trump and the GOP. 

[Othon 34,299]

13 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

The idea that you find it so outrageous that people disagree with you is astonishing. 

I find it outrageous that you and the rest of the handful of centrists on this site outright refuse to engage with the substance of our criticisms (like you literally just did) and fall back on the same line over and over again:

"The mean Bernie bros are so intolerant! I can't even disingenuously mock them or the left or Sanders without them criticizing me! How dare they attack another democrat! This is what gave us Trump!!!!!" 

You in particular have come into these threads over and over again to relentlessly bash Sanders, and when his supporters defend him and criticize the candidates that you're defending with policy-based criticism or criticism rooted in their records, you cry foul and act as if we've crossed a line by simply responding to what you said or substantively criticizing a politician (in a primary, the express purpose of which is to critique potential nominees) while refusing to engage with what we've presented to you. 

Disagreeing over a candidate is fine, if you can substantively defend yourself when faced with criticism from those that are more progressive than you. But when you and the rest of the four or five #NeverSanders people on this site lob an insult at the left or throw out some lazy line about how we shouldn't criticize democrats or claim that we should support conservative candidates that are outright telling us we can't have what every other industrialized country in the world has, policies that would save lives, you better be ready to deal with criticism.

Hillary Clinton did not lose the 2016 election because she faced a primary challenge. The 2015 and 2016 primary was not even remotely as heated as what happened in '08 and Obama beat McCain in a landslide. Sanders and his supporters did not force Clinton, the least popular candidate in the history of the democratic party, who ran an incompetent campaign that stunningly didn't even include a single stop in the state of Wisconsin, to lose to Trump. She lost because she was an awful candidate with a terrible record and was deeply unpopular, which is exactly what the left warned you about in the primary. You didn't listen to us, just like you're not listening to us now. That's what I find outrageous.

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

Are people really trying to argue that Progressives are wrong for being right...?

I get anger or frustration and the idea that we might be seen as arrogant, elitist, or even condescending, But have you ever considered that people like myself (I can't really speak for anyone) have faith in our beliefs because we extremely vet them, and not because of some blind faith that we must always be right and everyone who is wrong is just stupid? I don't think anyone I argue with is stupid, and its unproductive to ever call them that. At most, they are ignorant, as in, uninformed, misinformed, etc. That's not an inherently negative position to be in. I am ignorant about many things. It isn't tunnel vision, or absolute rejection of other perspectives, it is actived and informed rejections of those ideas that I have personally already considered. I used to believe every single thing that some users here who support Buttigieg did, and I liked him as well when he first announced for the exact reasons you all claim to..

and then I did some digging and soul searching

and NOW I dislike him. Is that so crazy a concept? Or is it really just an argument about "tone" - if I am not overly nice and walk you through everything kindly, it discredits the merits of the position. I don't think I personally attack people unless what they are saying is like, offensive and shouldn't be left unopposed, and I'm long winded in my explanations for sure, but you really sell yourselves short if you refuse to engage with someone's opinion. I also know that no matter how kindly or succinctly or politely someone makes a point on here, it will be met with the same level of disdain. 

I would @ people, but I'll get accused of things, so I won't. Still, someone feel free to respond.

[Hybrid AT 78]

Proud to support Pete Buttigieg for POTUS and tonight proved it.  Ready for fresh poll bumps . Haters keep hating him and he keeps rising in polls.  

(Cue the sad and lmao reacts by the far-left clowns here)

[Whispering 18,865]

8 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

I don’t even think this is entirely true. I think that there is a vocal minority that spoils the reputation of the larger far left — almost all of whom have their heart in the right place. 

  

I agree. In the real world, I know many people who are voting for Bernie, Warren and yes...even Biden. We have normal conversations about why we are voting for different candidates. Many people haven’t chosen a candidate yet and many aren’t set on their first choice. The only thing everyone seems passionate about is voting against Trump. 

I’m not sure why it’s so extreme here? Maybe the demo? (Age, personalities, idk) 

[Morphine Prince 109,683]

1 minute ago, MJHolland said:

Respectfully, I don’t understand why you think toxic and bad faith attacks thrown between 10 people is going to generate a better result than between 2 people.

This may be a competition, but not of these people are the enemy. When someone pulls ahead as the front runner, there will be no come to Jesus moment that happens with a flip of the switch. The work to unify the party happens NOW, not when our nominee is locked in the real shark tank with Trump and the GOP. 

It's not always toxic and bad faith though. There are legitimate criticisms made and they're all thrown at the window as "toxic" Just on this very site you can see it happening. 

None of these people are the enemy, but they don't represent ME fully either. So I will state my criticisms of them. I don't hate any of them, I just disagree with their views. I will still vote for whatever Democrat wins the nomination. That is not in question in my mind. 

And quite frankly, if a candidate can't take heat from their own party, how will they handle the GOP? They are relentless and will flat out lie about any Democrat. 

[Othon 34,299]

9 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

“I hate everyone always dunking on Bernie” 

*Sad reacts to literally every post on GGD that doesn’t perfectly align with their extreme ideology*

Ideologues are toxic af yall. 

This is embarrassing.

"Extreme ideology"? Wanting a universal healthcare system that guarantees healthcare to all Americans as a right, a plan similar to what nearly every other industrialized country in the world has, is an extreme position? Wanting to eliminate poverty is an extreme position? Wanting to avoid electing another centrist that will continue to kill Palestinians and back right-wing coups in Latin America and South America and kill innocent people in the Middle East with drone bombs is "extreme"?

It's been obvious for a while that you and the handful of other centrists on here don't engage with politics on a substantive policy level. When you tell us that what I just described is "extreme", when you outright refuse to engage with us on policy grounds and resort to this lame, semantic nonsense, it makes it extremely clear why we find engaging with you maddening, and why I personally find it a massive waste of my time and avoid it as frequently as I can.

[Economy 52,861]

Just now, OG Gaga Stan said:

This is embarrassing.

"Extreme ideology"? Wanting a universal healthcare system that guarantees healthcare to all Americans as a right, a plan similar to what nearly every other industrialized country in the world has, is an extreme position? Wanting to eliminate poverty is an extreme position? Wanting to avoid electing another centrist that will continue to kill Palestinians and back right-wing coups in Latin America and South America and kill innocent people in the Middle East with drone bombs is "extreme"?

It's been obvious for a while that you and the handful of other centrists on here don't engage with politics on a substantive policy level. When you tell us that what I just described is "extreme", when you outright refuse to engage with us on policy grounds and resort to this lame, semantic nonsense, it makes it extremely clear why we find engaging with you maddening, and why I personally find it a massive waste of my time and avoid it as frequently as I can.

I don't think free healthcare is extreme or the military stuff

 

But I do think an 8% wealth tax or the very high corporate taxes are an extreme that will backfire

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

1 minute ago, Economy said:

I don't think free healthcare is extreme or the military stuff

 

But I do think an 8% wealth tax or the very high corporate taxes are an extreme that will backfire

Why would an 8% wealth tax on people whose wealth is over $10 billion backfire?

And do you think the alternative (letting things stay as they are) is better or more sustainable?