Unearthed Clip: Mel B calling out Blackface

[PunkTheFunk 124,437]

5 minutes ago, JonathanHolland1 said:

I agree with you that Black Pete is racist but the guy was talking about present day Netherlands and Belgium. Ofcourse The Netherlands has a colonial heritage but so do all the other European nations. Go for example to the Louvre, British Museum or Vatican and you'll see many objects stolen from former colonies which they refuse to return. Overall foreign people who come to the Netherlands are welcomed and are able to integrate pretty well. For that you can't say the Netherlands as a whole is a racist country, east European countries and probably the USA are a lot worse for that matter. 

It may be more tolerant now but it still has its dark past (as do many countries, I'm not denying that). What bothers me is that people are pushing that history aside and trying to pass it off as a harmless tradition. "It's just chimney soot! We're not racist! Kids love it! Why don't you fix YOUR problems America?!" 

If an African country started a tradition called "White Jack" where people covered their faces in white paint and wore blond wigs and danced around the streets, all these Black Pete apologists would have their panties in a twist.

[PunkTheFunk 124,437]

2 hours ago, TMM90 said:

Sorry hoor, maar hoe zwarte piet word afgebeeld is stereotype slaaf.

we kunnen er niet omheen -- Zwarte Piet is een racistische karikatuur 

[StrawberryBlond 14,862]

I really think the tradition needs to be put to bed or at the very least, adapted so people look like an actual chimney sweep with random patches of soot on their face. No matter how you try to spin it, it is meant to be a literal depiction of a black person and if it wasn't, this extent of effort wouldn't be put in. When you get covered in soot, it doesn't cover your face in such a way so that it perfectly surrounds your eyes and nostrils and lips as if it's skin colour. It also isn't that deep brown colour, nor is it of a soft consistency. But even for all that, if it still isn't meant to be a depiction of black people, it sure looks like it is and it's not unlike the blackface of old. When a depiction is this extreme, you simply can't say it's just a matter of misinterpreted culture. The Dutch have seen blackface, they know what it is and they know that it's massively similar to what they claim is an innocent tradition. I don't know how you can live in the 21st century and see this as acceptable, no matter where you live. Even if this is what you've grown up with and it's all you know, surely, you can't help but notice that it looks like something sinister and therefore, feel uncomfortable with it? It doesn't matter if it's culture in this case. Times moves on and if we've reached a point where something that was once regarded as innocent is now not so innocent, it should be changed so it doesn't offend anyone.

2 hours ago, Supersonic said:

We've been talking about that holiday a lot in my university classes and how often racism in Europe gets defended with "It's just part of their culture."

Are you just talking about Netherlands when you say Europe, or are you suggesting that there's other cultural traditions throughout Europe that are racist but get defended? Because apart from this, I can't think of any European tradition that could be interpreted as racist but gets defended as culture. But if there are, do enlighten me.

9 minutes ago, Why am I on GGD said:

This might offend a lot of people but I don't think the act of painting your skin black is wrong in itself, as long as it isn't done to ridicule or portray anyone in a negative way. But that might be a cultural thing for me - I know it's a much more sensitive (and more discussed) subject in America.

It isn't just in America. Other Europeans, like me, are also shocked by this. I want to know why this tradition has flourished in the Netherlands but all the surrounding countries don't see it as acceptable. It's rare for your neighbours to have completely different viewpoints. Why has this cultural idea of painting your skin black not being wrong somehow retained itself to one country but all its neighbours disagree? I find it quite fascinating how this could happen. At the most, I could understand if the Netherlands was completely white, but there's all different races there, who would surely find this offensive and it would be considered wise to take their views into consideration. Surely the black Dutch population have something to say about it and they should be listened to?

[Taylorrgh 679]

I Honestly can't with some of you who are defending this "tradition"

[Jonathanholland 5,322]

Just now, PunkTheFunk said:

It may be more tolerant now but it still has its dark past (as do many countries, I'm not denying that). What bothers me is that people are pushing that history aside and trying to pass it off as a harmless tradition. "It's just chimney soot! We're not racist! Kids love it! Why don't you fix YOUR problems America?!" 

If an African country started a tradition called "White Jack" where people covered their faces in white paint and wore blond wigs and danced around the streets, all these Black Pete apologists would have their panties in a twist.

That would still not be as bad since African countries never enslaved white people. Truth is that you can't blame modern day people for slavery two hundred years ago (which doesn't mean it is something whe souldn't care about anymore). As I wrote earlier you have to understand that people have always considered Sinterklaas as an innocent fairy tale in which a nice old man and his friends come with their boat from Spain, enter the country in a massive procession where they hand out candy, after which they climb the houses and put presents in the shoes of children during the night for two weeks. And on the 5th of december, before Sinterklaas leaves, the children get spoiled with loads of presents on presentsevening. It's not that strange people change their minds about Black Pete directly. It's also the reason they say it isn't racist, because they sincerely don't have any racist intentions with dressing as Black Pete, they are just following a traditon they grew up with and share a nostalgic feeling with. It sounds strange but you can't call all these people racist, although they participate in a racist tradition. 

 

14 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Are you just talking about Netherlands when you say Europe, or are you suggesting that there's other cultural traditions throughout Europe that are racist but get defended? Because apart from this, I can't think of any European tradition that could be interpreted as racist but gets defended as culture. But if there are, do enlighten me.

Belgium does have the same tradition as the Netherlands including Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet. All over Europe are similar traditions about Saint Nicholas probably originated in the Middle Ages, but they are not racist. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companions_of_Saint_Nicholas#Zwarte_Piet_(Black_Pete)

Originally Saint Nicholas came alone, Zwarte Piet first appeared in the 19th century. 

[hausofcy 20,325]

50 minutes ago, PunkTheFunk said:

"Like other European maritime nations, the Dutch were quick to involve themselves in the transtlantic slave trade. Between 1596 and 1829, the Dutch transported about half a million Africans across the Atlantic." [...] "The Dutch also shipped about a half million Africans to their settlements in Dutch Guiana, notably Suriname, where they worked primarily on sugar plantations."

http://slaveryandremembrance.org/articles/article/?id=A0145

To add insult to injury, the Dutch were among the last in Europe to abolish slavery. And yet I'm supposed to believe that the Netherlands is a country free of any racist past and just has an innocent little tradition that is totally not blackface! 

yeah you should believe that. I'm not saying there isn't any racism at all but the racism towards muslims is the real problem. Almost nobody acts or is racist when it comes to black people and that's a fact 

[PunkTheFunk 124,437]

3 minutes ago, JonathanHolland1 said:

That would still not be as bad since African countries never enslaved white people. Truth is that you can't blame modern day people for slavery two hundred years ago (which doesn't mean it is something whe souldn't care about anymore). As I wrote earlier you have to understand that people have always considered Sinterklaas as an innocent fairy tale in which a nice old man and his friends come with their boat from Spain, enter the country in a massive procession where they hand out candy, after which they climb the houses and put presents in the shoes of children during the night for two weeks. And on the 5th of december, before Sinterklaas leaves, the children get spoiled with loads of presents on presentsevening. It's not that strange people change their minds about Black Pete directly. It's also the reason they say it isn't racist, because they sincerely don't have any racist intentions with dressing as Black Pete, they are just following a traditon they grew up with and share a nostalgic feeling with. It sounds strange but you can't call all these people racist, although they participate in a racist tradition. 

1 minute ago, hausofcy said:

yeah you should believe that. I'm not saying there isn't any racism at all but the racism towards muslims is the real problem. Almost nobody acts or is racist when it comes to black people and that's a fact 

To both of your points, I'm sure the people partaking in this tradition are great people otherwise. But that doesn't mean the tradition itself isn't racist. 

 

[hausofcy 20,325]

1 hour ago, gag said:

Wait... this is a joke right

no it isn't. I have only seen a racist act against a black person once on a bus and everyone, including me jumped on that old white man and put him in place. You might call me ignorant but everytime i come across racism there's always a muslim involved and yes, racism disgusts me but taking away zwarte piet idk. It was my favourite day of the year as a child and i'm just sad that it's getting ruined for little kids right know. Imagine telling an 8 year old yeah remember zwarte piet? he's not coming this year. 

[SpamMusubi 1,010]

2 minutes ago, hausofcy said:

yeah you should believe that. I'm not saying there isn't any racism at all but the racism towards muslims is the real problem. Almost nobody acts or is racist when it comes to black people and that's a fact 

Girl almost no one acts racist towards black people??? What r u talking about lmao?

[hausofcy 20,325]

Just now, PunkTheFunk said:

To both of your points, I'm sure the people partaking in this tradition are great people otherwise. But that doesn't mean the tradition itself isn't racist. 

 

i'm just saying that no one associates zwarte piet as something related to slavery, black people and racism. 

[hausofcy 20,325]

2 hours ago, Gohan said:

This so much. Americans are truly offended by everything in the world yet they can't cancel their own president.

THANK YOU! I love you for this 

[Taylorrgh 679]

2 minutes ago, hausofcy said:

no it isn't. I have only seen a racist act against a black person once on a bus and everyone, including me jumped on that old white man and put him in place. You might call me ignorant but everytime i come across racism there's always a muslim involved and yes, racism disgusts me but taking away zwarte piet idk. It was my favourite day of the year as a child and i'm just sad that it's getting ruined for little kids right know. Imagine telling an 8 year old yeah remember zwarte piet? he's not coming this year. 

What? Just because you don't see racism against black people happening, does not mean it does not exist; That's just plain ignorant.

[Supersonic 49,376]

24 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I really think the tradition needs to be put to bed or at the very least, adapted so people look like an actual chimney sweep with random patches of soot on their face. No matter how you try to spin it, it is meant to be a literal depiction of a black person and if it wasn't, this extent of effort wouldn't be put in. When you get covered in soot, it doesn't cover your face in such a way so that it perfectly surrounds your eyes and nostrils and lips as if it's skin colour. It also isn't that deep brown colour, nor is it of a soft consistency. But even for all that, if it still isn't meant to be a depiction of black people, it sure looks like it is and it's not unlike the blackface of old. When a depiction is this extreme, you simply can't say it's just a matter of misinterpreted culture. The Dutch have seen blackface, they know what it is and they know that it's massively similar to what they claim is an innocent tradition. I don't know how you can live in the 21st century and see this as acceptable, no matter where you live. Even if this is what you've grown up with and it's all you know, surely, you can't help but notice that it looks like something sinister and therefore, feel uncomfortable with it? It doesn't matter if it's culture in this case. Times moves on and if we've reached a point where something that was once regarded as innocent is now not so innocent, it should be changed so it doesn't offend anyone.

Are you just talking about Netherlands when you say Europe, or are you suggesting that there's other cultural traditions throughout Europe that are racist but get defended? Because apart from this, I can't think of any European tradition that could be interpreted as racist but gets defended as culture. But if there are, do enlighten me.

It isn't just in America. Other Europeans, like me, are also shocked by this. I want to know why this tradition has flourished in the Netherlands but all the surrounding countries don't see it as acceptable. It's rare for your neighbours to have completely different viewpoints. Why has this cultural idea of painting your skin black not being wrong somehow retained itself to one country but all its neighbours disagree? I find it quite fascinating how this could happen. At the most, I could understand if the Netherlands was completely white, but there's all different races there, who would surely find this offensive and it would be considered wise to take their views into consideration. Surely the black Dutch population have something to say about it and they should be listened to?

I‘m also talking about Blackface in Germany and how extremely prevelant it is during Carnival season here, along with lowkey racist carnival & Halloween costumes. I grew up in the countryside and when I was a child, the kindergardeners put us all in a very questionable play that included brownface, yellowface and blackface. There‘s still a HUGE amount of unaddressed blackface here in sketch comedy as well (and I‘ve seen multiple clips of Polish comedians being in blackface on TV). I‘ve seen a lot of people in my country defend blackface as like „It‘s just a costume, we‘ve done it for centuries it‘s no big deal.“ 

[hausofcy 20,325]

Just now, Tyler Henry said:

What? Just because you don't see racism against black people happening, does not mean it does not exist; That's just plain ignorant.

Can't you just accept the fact that every country has different issues with racism? In Greece there's racism towards Albanians. In Belgium towards muslims. In America well don't let me start with that country. And I live in Belgium and I can assure you that racism towards black people is practically non existent. 

[ZiggyZiggs 30,062]

1 hour ago, Sanne Godijn said:

Kinda we now have black pete and a versión with only black stripes on their face 

Well.... progress