SychosSoChic 9,995 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 10 hours ago, CautiousLurker said: What nazis have done in the past is no longer relevant Wow ok. And SJWs are the cancer Life ain't Hollywood for any one of us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernster7 7,976 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Anyone defending the American guy has honestly lived their whole life in a bubble. You need a dose of reality. Monsters never die. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphine Prince 109,664 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 The energy some of you are investing in defending and sympathizing with Nazis yet when a minority is discriminated you're all of a sudden suspicious. Very telling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CautiousLurker 19,709 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 7 hours ago, Liza said: Did you get that from my post? Maybe I should have put another disclaimer in when I was writing it. I don't care about the German or the American dude in this scenario. My post was directed specifically at you and your dismissive wording and complete weirdness about the seriousness of someone doing Nazi salutes in Germany, acting like it's simply someone's innocuous opinion without considering the context/history of it. Of course what Nazi's have done in the past is relevant, it's what makes up huge parts of beliefs of neo-Nazi's. Nazism is not comparable to someone being anti-gay rights or anti-abortion or whatever, Nazism as an ideology is much much more damaging that than because of the connotations of it and shouldn't be put in a category as "Haha freedom of speech, it's just his opinion/ideology!" That was my issue, not about whether it was right or wrong for the man to hit the tourist for doing the salute. 4 hours ago, SychosSoChic said: Wow ok. And SJWs are the cancer I wasn't quoting you alone... And no, it isn't relevant in a sense that it's pretty safe to say that it won't have the same effect... ever... Yes, nazis have unjustly murdered millions in gruesome ways, but that's exactly as you've said - history... That's not going to happen in the west - there are already laws and forces in place to make sure that doesn't happen... People keep talking about them as if they're a power-house group that has a prospect of gaining political power - they're really not... They're a bunch of remote (mostly uneducated and disorganised) people whose numbers continue to shrink - no rich government will ever take their advent into politics seriously... And I'm of that opinion exactly because I consider history... I'll sum it up for ya - basically, after WWI Germany was broke af, the nazi party took advantage of it and they picked jews as their political pawn because they were the most convenient group to do so and also Hitler was insane... It had nothing to do with 'white power', it had everything to do with money... They started with executing political prisoners and spread from there to secure cheap labour and get rid of people who didn't contribute (Hitler believed that jews were conspiring to dismantle and sell the entire country), including people with mental and physical handicaps (homosexuality was considered a mental illness back then btw) - keep in mind that those were killed in concentration camps as well... It was a regime chosen out of desperation and extreme poverty - US is not going to be this poor... And even during times of hardship, the US government has always remained centre-right or centre-left... I really don't see that pattern changing considering the quality of life actually continues to rise... Btw, I'm not sure if you know how wide-spread anti-jew propaganda was back then, but something like that would be near impossible to pull off in the west because of free media and the internet... Like, you know the horror stories about how oppressive North Korean government is? Nazi regime was pretty close... The government controlled the media, the arts, basically all outlets... They actually taught antisemetism in schools... So yeah, my response wasn't a dismissal - I am and always have been an egalitarian so any ideology that challenges that I oppose... But I don't treat nazis as this huge impending threat to modern society because nowadays actual nazis have virtually no power... And I also don't think I should be allowed to punch anyone who disagrees with me It's a joke! When you give me that look, it's a joke! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CautiousLurker 19,709 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 2 hours ago, Morphine Prince said: The energy some of you are investing in defending and sympathizing with Nazis yet when a minority is discriminated you're all of a sudden suspicious. Very telling. Defending nazism and condemning unprovoked physical assault are not one and the same - lemme kno when/if that ever sinks in It's a joke! When you give me that look, it's a joke! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuchulainn 3,040 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Just now, CautiousLurker said: Defending nazism and condemning unprovoked physical assault are not one and the same - lemme kno when/if that ever sinks in It won't. He's been name calling for ages Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphine Prince 109,664 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, CautiousLurker said: Defending nazism and condemning unprovoked physical assault are not one and the same - lemme kno when/if that ever sinks in 1 minute ago, Creativek said: It won't. He's been name calling for ages Let me know when you aren't white supremacists If you want name calling you'll get it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CautiousLurker 19,709 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said: Let me know when you aren't white supremacists If you want name calling you'll get it. @Haroon Is this WP worthy considering I take egalitarianism pretty seriously? I'm also a commercial artist so this is technically defamation Spoiler The fact I'm not famus is irrelevant It's a joke! When you give me that look, it's a joke! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuchulainn 3,040 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said: Let me know when you aren't white supremacists If you want name calling you'll get it. When they go low, we go high! I would never sympathize with a racist or white supremacist, but the way some of you act when anyone has a different viewpoint is just as 'telling'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphine Prince 109,664 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Just now, CautiousLurker said: @Haroon Is this WP worthy considering I take egalitarianism pretty seriously? Just now, Creativek said: When they go low, we go high! I would never sympathize with a racist or white supremacist, but the way some of you act when anyone has a different viewpoint is just as 'telling'. @Haroon get these Nazis away from me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liza 618 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 1 hour ago, CautiousLurker said: I wasn't quoting you alone... And no, it isn't relevant in a sense that it's pretty safe to say that it won't have the same effect... ever... Yes, nazis have unjustly murdered millions in gruesome ways, but that's exactly as you've said - history... That's not going to happen in the west - there are already laws and forces in place to make sure that doesn't happen... People keep talking about them as if they're a power-house group that has a prospect of gaining political power - they're really not... They're a bunch of remote (mostly uneducated and disorganised) people whose numbers continue to shrink - no rich government will ever take their advent into politics seriously... And I'm of that opinion exactly because I consider history... I'll sum it up for ya - basically, after WWI Germany was broke af, the nazi party took advantage of it and they picked jews as their political pawn because they were the most convenient group to do so and also Hitler was insane... It had nothing to do with 'white power', it had everything to do with money... They started with executing political prisoners and spread from there to secure cheap labour and get rid of people who didn't contribute (Hitler believed that jews were conspiring to dismantle and sell the entire country), including people with mental and physical handicaps (homosexuality was considered a mental illness back then btw) - keep in mind that those were killed in concentration camps as well... It was a regime chosen out of desperation and extreme poverty - US is not going to be this poor... And even during times of hardship, the US government has always remained centre-right or centre-left... I really don't see how that pattern changing considering the quality of life actually continues to rise... Btw, I'm not sure if you know how wide-spread anti-jew propaganda was back then, but something like that would be near impossible to pull off in the west because of free media and the internet... Like, you know the horror stories about how oppressive North Korean government is? Nazi regime was pretty close... The government controlled the media, the arts, basically all outlets... They actually taught antisemetism in schools... So yeah, my response wasn't a dismissal - I am and always have been an egalitarian so any ideology that challenges that I oppose... But I don't treat nazis as this huge impending threat to modern society because nowadays actual nazis have virtually no power... And I also don't think I should be allowed to punch anyone who disagrees with me Thanks for the response. I see where you are coming from and while none of this is new information to me, I appreciate you explaining your point of view. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree (like all historians lmao) because imo history is always relevant. I see it as relevant as neo-Nazis don't exist in a vacuum, they have taken Nazism and brought it into the 21st century. They still have the same/similar ideology, still use the same symbols and phrases, just adapted it somewhat to fit in with their aims now. They will never have as much power as the Nazi Party did (obviously) and while they are not a huge impending threat to society, they are definitely an issue - you get enough people and you do have political power (voting/being heard in decision making). They are particularly a nuisance and an issue due to similar opinions and views being present today. While I'd never use the term "white power" in relation to the actual rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party, it's super relevant when talking about neo-Nazis, because while it's true that Hitler used the economic depression to his advantage, there was more to Nazism than money and power in the state - the Aryan race, eugenics, genetic superiority. So it's obvious there's a link between Nazism and "white power" power today, it's not that big a reach, so people are using the symbols of Nazism to get their message across. So the US doesn't have to be poor since Nazism isn't all about money. It just has to have tension and issues with race. And what dya know, it does. Regarding your last line though, I never said you should be able to punch people who disagree with you, since I agree with you that you cannae go around hitting folk you disagree with. Anyway uhhh is this still on topic. Although if anything your impromptu history lesson there is making me wedge in my heels in further, cause it definitely shows you shouldn't be downplaying the seriousness of Nazism and its symbols while in the country that was messed up by Nazism. Which was my original grievance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whispering 18,865 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 3 hours ago, Morphine Prince said: The energy some of you are investing in defending and sympathizing with Nazis yet when a minority is discriminated you're all of a sudden suspicious. Very telling. Look for the pattern. It's why we see CEOs resigning from the Manufacturing Council, despite the empty words of Trump yesterday. He said the words, but they knew exactly what he meant with his silence on certain subjects for 48 hours. Add that to his words in the past and it is a pattern...a pattern that spells out exactly what his intentions are...and they want no part of it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
not asher613 661 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 15 hours ago, CautiousLurker said: What nazis have done in the past is no longer relevant - you do realise that if they attacked someone, there are already laws in place to punish that, right? But same goes for any assault, which is fair - NO ONE should have to endure a physical assault if they haven't initiated it... Seriously, if you are unable to explain to a Nazi why their ideology is flawed and counter their arguments with something other than fists, stay away from the conversation on human rights, you clearly don't know what you're doing... I'll explain it this way - you know the way it makes you feel when a nazis spew their rhetoric? They feel the exact same way about you... They think they are in the right and they are protecting their values that are correct... So think about it - what would happen if someone were to beat you up for what you believe in - would that change your mind? OF COURSE NOT... More than likely, it would actually make your stance stronger... Same applies to them.. Violence will never eradicate nazism, it will just give them more reason to stand for what they stand for... Refusing to be violent is not being dismissive, and if you genuinely condemn a person for that, you are no better than them - no empathy, just hatered... Take a good hard look at yourself before you call another person disgusting... You seem like a thoughtful person and I appreciate that. As a jew, I sometimes grow concerned that a thought-prison adherence to true principles can make us blind to and at risk of forgetting the basic good sense underlying important lessons history has taught us. Nazism is a nightmare that brought a continent to its knees, its introduction of eugenics as medicine and subversion of science through systematized barbarism brought an instant dark age regression regarding the need for science to serve man and not a nation's pride or political ends. And the mass extermination of minority populations represents the absolute failure of humanity. It literally can not get worse and i agree with you that America is far from ever reaching that kind of spiritual desolation. It is not fair to call Nazis animals because animals only truly cause harm for their own benefit. This was a uniquely human disease of the mind and suspension of all we know a heart to be. My point is simply to say that I agree with you. The ills of Nazism are plain and universally recognizable as the failure of man in the modern era to make use of ALL the tools available to us for the benefit of man. Media for pure propaganda, education for misdirection, economics as justification for the manual disturbance of market equality, science for the cardinal sin of harm first, on human subjects no less, ostensibly in hopes of discovery that could serve to provide proof based groubds for racial pride. The height of ignorance and human folly- that our differences place disparate races on an hierarchical scale. And all, truly, for the sake of political power and material gain. An embarrassing manipulation of the public's weaknesses for the sake off the most voracious and shameless power-hungry system ever conceived. Understanding is important. But it is a mistake to separate Nazism from the white supremacist underpinnings that make it more of a social disease, manifest, than it is a true political philosophy. Ideology starts with a question. "What is right?" Hate based, supremacist rhetoric is closer to dogma. It starts with an answer, "we are right." It is the like the fourth leg of a chair- it can prop up a belief that functions happily with no rational basis. "Who are WE? WE are good!" Racists might feel the same about their views and they might defend them in a simple, common human way but that is immaterial. You say Nazi history is irrelevant. I know why you mean to say, and it is important for Europe to move forward with a new self-identifying anchor point, but it is a mistake to ignore the violent and entitled aspirations for totalitarian power that are carried inherently in those symbols and associations. A violent response to someone who is either espousing or making light of this, the most fundamentally antisocial and inhumane political system is, itself, basic and, in fact, universally understood. The very thing which brings contemporary thought in enlightened Germany to disavow and punish flirtations with this recognized evil is what can bring a single German to lash out at what is intolerable. Again, I appreciate your thoughtful embrace of variance in a diverse ideological culture, but I say it is on us, who were witnesses to this greatest mass-ill ever to plague mankind to crack the teeth of such chatter; to sever the tongue of such snakes and to kill dead the idea of a cancer before it is fully formed. We can be informed yet carry in your belly the fire of righteous justice we only hope the law will uphold. The better citizen of a nation might arguably wait for the law but a citizen of the earth, in the brotherhood of man might rightly be moved to act. 52 minutes ago, CautiousLurker said: I wasn't quoting you alone... And no, it isn't relevant in a sense that it's pretty safe to say that it won't have the same effect... ever... Yes, nazis have unjustly murdered millions in gruesome ways, but that's exactly as you've said - history... That's not going to happen in the west - there are already laws and forces in place to make sure that doesn't happen... People keep talking about them as if they're a power-house group that has a prospect of gaining political power - they're really not... They're a bunch of remote (mostly uneducated and disorganised) people whose numbers continue to shrink - no rich government will ever take their advent into politics seriously... And I'm of that opinion exactly because I consider history... I'll sum it up for ya - basically, after WWI Germany was broke af, the nazi party took advantage of it and they picked jews as their political pawn because they were the most convenient group to do so and also Hitler was insane... It had nothing to do with 'white power', it had everything to do with money... They started with executing political prisoners and spread from there to secure cheap labour and get rid of people who didn't contribute (Hitler believed that jews were conspiring to dismantle and sell the entire country), including people with mental and physical handicaps (homosexuality was considered a mental illness back then btw) - keep in mind that those were killed in concentration camps as well... It was a regime chosen out of desperation and extreme poverty - US is not going to be this poor... And even during times of hardship, the US government has always remained centre-right or centre-left... I really don't see that pattern changing considering the quality of life actually continues to rise... Btw, I'm not sure if you know how wide-spread anti-jew propaganda was back then, but something like that would be near impossible to pull off in the west because of free media and the internet... Like, you know the horror stories about how oppressive North Korean government is? Nazi regime was pretty close... The government controlled the media, the arts, basically all outlets... They actually taught antisemetism in schools... So yeah, my response wasn't a dismissal - I am and always have been an egalitarian so any ideology that challenges that I oppose... But I don't treat nazis as this huge impending threat to modern society because nowadays actual nazis have virtually no power... And I also don't think I should be allowed to punch anyone who disagrees with me I'm not sure why you seem to be isolating Nazism as a political phenomenon from the direct outgrowth which found its way into our streets, recently and, indeed, for those paying attention, into the highest seat of office in this nation. (Not to mention the vast waves of nativist xenophobia spreading across Europe) these are real political and material shifts that are bewildering in their scale, today and harrowing in their potential for tomorrow. This seems like a misguided and troubling distinction to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
not asher613 661 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Liza said: . They will never have as much power as the Nazi Party did (obviously) and while they are not a huge impending threat to society, they are definitely an issue - you get enough people and you do have political power (voting/being heard in decision making). They are particularly a nuisance and an issue due to similar opinions and views being present today. While I'd never use the term "white power" in relation to the actual rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party, it's super relevant when talking about neo-Nazis, because while it's true that Hitler used the economic depression to his advantage, there was more to Nazism than money and power in the state - the Aryan race, eugenics, genetic superiority. So it's obvious there's a link between Nazism and "white power" power today, it's not that big a reach, so people are using the symbols of Nazism to get their message across. I agree with this and I think it's important. The more white supremacist/nativist factions are amplified and consolidated the more they become a political reality politicians take into consideration. Very simply- Trump embraced every foul, hate-based policy approach and he literally dragged the party off their track. Politicians need to get in office and we know that that purpose surpasses ethical considerations all to it often. That means you now have politicians standing up and supporting poisonous ideas. This can cycle and gain inertia, God forbid. But the effects on our politics don't need to be sudden and earth shattering to be disastrous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haroon 49,685 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 2 hours ago, CautiousLurker said: @Haroon Is this WP worthy considering I take egalitarianism pretty seriously? I'm also a commercial artist so this is technically defamation Reveal hidden contents The fact I'm not famus is irrelevant 2 hours ago, Morphine Prince said: @Haroon get these Nazis away from me. If you've got a problem with a post then please report it and explain in the reporter's comment why. Tagging moderators isn't going to get very far because that's not how things work so please stop and take the correct route in sorting things out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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