Norway to ban burqas in schools & universities

[Gagafy 296]

4 minutes ago, Adampervez said:

While burqas are quite extreme for many people it is often the womans choice whether she wants tk wear it or not. Being a muslim myself im not exactly the biggrst fan of burqas but i beleive in freedom of what to wear, so i feel like this law is quite harsh. But it is important to remember that burqas are completely cultural and have almost nothing to do with islamic teaching.

Hijabs are not oppresive at all, all women in my family who wear it, chose too and find it empowering as thry are all feminists. 

Furthermore, men actually are subjected to similar clothing rules. Traditional islamic teachings explain how men should not expose their chests and should cover up legs to their calves. But unfortunetaly, like every society, all cultures  are a patriarchy and relaxed with men and more oppresive to women

by abiding the law of the country, tradition and acceptance, that is. There are freedom to certain extent, and when you traveled to other countries, you have to follow theirs.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, GypsyBabe said:

Is this always the case? 

I would imagine that they are not all extremists. 

Of course, it's a sign of having an extreme point of view about islam. Moderates wear hijabs or nothing at all. 

[Gagafy 296]

Just now, kyanewest said:

Of course, it's a sign of having an extreme point of view about islam. Moderates wear hijabs or nothing at all. 

not really, hijabs were not a norm before the 70s Iran revolution. The iran revolution changes islam.

[Melech 9,900]

45 minutes ago, ZacharyMark said:

Surely there are some examples of women wearing Burqas based off of their personal choice, right? Are hijabs are sign of oppression too? But I do agree that there are areas that violate women's rights and wrongly preach Islamic traditions.

I'm just going off of my knowledge based on a ME class I took. 

Side note, I never really got why men aren't subjected to these traditions. Or I guess that's part of the oppression issue?

I don't think that hijab are sign of oppression. (But I do know muslim feminists who think so) 

According to wikipedia it's mainly based on that:

"O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw their outergarments close around themselves; that is better that they will be recognized and not annoyed. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle."

— Qur'an, Surah 33 (Al-Ahzab), Verse 59

"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"

— Qur'an, Surah 24 (An-Nur), Verse 31

 

Truly sexist phrases like you can find them in any religion, so it's not a muslim-only thing. There are orthodox Jews who veil themselves fully as well. Woman are seen as the sin who will make the men sin cause of the sexual desire. This again you can find in any abrahamic religion. 

[GypsyBabe 22,836]

12 minutes ago, kyanewest said:

Of course, it's a sign of having an extreme point of view about islam. Moderates wear hijabs or nothing at all. 

But surely this is not always the case. I don't believe that burqa = extremist. 

I guess the real question is: Is being orthodox or fundamentalist with regards to religion always a negative thing? 

I tend to think that extremist views with regards to anything are divisive, because it offers no room for dialogue between groups of people or change. 

[Melech 9,900]

4 minutes ago, GypsyBabe said:

But surely this is not always the case. I don't believe that burqa = extremist. 

I guess the real question is: Is being orthodox or fundamentalist with regards to religion always a negative thing? 

I tend to think that extremist views with regards to anything are divisive, because it offers no room for dialogue between groups of people or change. 

Orthodox or fundamentalist is extremist when they are against gay rights for example. 

[GypsyBabe 22,836]

Just now, Simon said:

Orthodox or fundamentalist is extremist when they are against gay rights for example. 

Yes, I believe that extremist views are the wrong views. But where is the line between beliefs and the wrong beliefs. Who dictates such things? 

[River 127,333]

41 minutes ago, GypsyBabe said:

I love this discussion that we are having! 

I think that my issue with this topic is more the reasons behind "why" this is being banned as opposed to whether or not this is a "necessity." 

Education is the key to progression. But the issue is how to assimilate cultures without manipulating and eradicating elements of that culture in such a way that is transgressive. This is extremely difficult to do. 

Also keep in mind that I am inherently biased in one way because although I have done much research on topics such as these, and travelled to many places around the world, I am still a girl from Boston who is not regularly exposed to the issue that we are discussing.

"Why" is a correct question to ask of course, we need to understand if it's come from Islamophobia or not.. imo it's not, they could easily ban the hijab for example but they didn't.. it became a common sense that to cover your face while talking to a teacher, sutomer service person etc is rude, unsafe and it's making a disconnection between the 2 people, facial expression is important during a conversation..

I can say from experience when I worked as a sales person, I always asked customers if they can 'please' remove their sunglasses, which is like the least item that covers your face, but I just saw it as very rude..

Now, of course we need to find the good line to merge between the 2 cultures, but for most westerns, this culture is questionable if it's a choice or not.

I read few times here that it's a choice, but it's a dangerous generalization to do, because there's always be this small percentage that is forced to do something so even in the burqa case.  as long as there is even only 1% of the muslim women that is forced to put burqa, imo we need to ban it until we educated those men to give their women the chance to have a choice of what to wear a burqa or hijab or none..

Choice is a difficult word especially when it comes to religion, because no one when they are born are thinking "oh I'm going to put a *religious cloth* when I will grow up" they are educated to want it so it's not a choice, it's a brainwashing..

I'm coming from Israel and there we can see the fight between the orthodox and the non orthodox Jews.. the oppressing against the freedom..

[Goosey 3,017]

4 hours ago, Simon said:

"Norway aims to ban face-covering Muslim veils in kindergartens, schools and universities, the government said on Monday, the latest European nation to propose restrictions on wearing burqas and niqabs.

Well then, some people won't go to school or university. So progressive 

[Melech 9,900]

1 minute ago, GypsyBabe said:

Yes, I believe that extremist views are the wrong views. But where is the line between beliefs and the wrong beliefs. Who dictates such things? 

I think everyone has a different view.  Burqa weares are a minority and they follow a ideology which is extremist in my eyes. 

[Goosey 3,017]

5 minutes ago, Simon said:

Orthodox or fundamentalist is extremist when they are against gay rights for example. 

Have to disagree 

[GypsyBabe 22,836]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

I think everyone has a different view.  Burqa weares are a minority and they follow a ideology which is extremist in my eyes. 

Thats why threads like these are so great. 

[GypsyBabe 22,836]

3 minutes ago, River said:

"Why" is a correct question to ask of course, we need to understand if it's come from Islamophobia or not.. imo it's not, they could easily ban the hijab for example but they didn't.. it became a common sense that to cover your face while talking to a teacher, sutomer service person etc is rude, unsafe and it's making a disconnection between the 2 people, facial expression is important during a conversation..

I can say from experience when I worked as a sales person, I always asked customers if they can 'please' remove their sunglasses, which is like the least item that covers your face, but I just saw it as very rude..

Now, of course we need to find the good line to merge between the 2 cultures, but for most westerns, this culture is questionable if it's a choice or not.

I read few times here that it's a choice, but it's a dangerous generalization to do, because there's always be this small percentage that is forced to do something so even in the burqa case.  as long as there is even only 1% of the muslim women that is forced to put burqa, imo we need to ban it until we educated those men to give their women the chance to have a choice of what to wear a burqa or hijab or none..

Choice is a difficult word especially when it comes to religion, because no one when they are born are thinking "oh I'm going to put a *religious cloth* when I will grow up" they are educated to want it so it's not a choice, it's a brainwashing..

I'm coming from Israel and there we can see the fight between the orthodox and the non orthodox Jews.. the oppressing against the freedom..

I'm excited to continue our discussion. But I am heading into work and will comment on this when I get back later on. I don't want you to think that I am ignoring you. 

[Gagafy 296]

5 minutes ago, Simon said:

I think everyone has a different view.  Burqa weares are a minority and they follow a ideology which is extremist in my eyes. 

more muslim women apart from iran and turkey are embracing that.

[Goosey 3,017]

4 hours ago, Simon said:

Norway's minority government, a coalition of the center-right Conservatives and the populist Progress Party

Oh, why am I not surprised.