Biden authorizes Ukraine to use US-supplied missiles in Russia

[thefamebitch 834]

4 minutes ago, King of the Fall said:

You don't seem to understand, do you? Nobody is defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine. But we also don't want WWIII to start because of Ukraine. Russia has said that they will retaliate against the United States if they supply Ukraine with weapons to strike inside Russian territory and do you seriously think it's a good idea to mess around with a nuclear power that has the largest arsenal of advanced long range missiles in the world? Besides, how is sending Ukraine missiles to use inside Russia going to turn the tide in the ground war and force Russia to abandon the territory it has seized? This is a fools errand designed to hand Trump a world war when he gets in office.

Why don’t you think a little bit of outside the US?  Why are you so focused on how this impacts TRUMP of all people? 
 

Russia has been annexing countries for years and Ukraine is just the latest. If Ukraine falls, it’s yet another country that Russia has taken through force or coercion. 

 

We should just give up Ukraine and let Russia walk away unscathed?  And then what happens when Russia wants to annex another country, just give in?  Just let them take countries one by one? When is kicking the can down the road enough?
 

[4th Time Around 5,059]

Just now, MACATL said:

So your solution?  Back down and let big scary Putin do as he pleases throughout the region?  Where does it stop?  No one wants WW3, but let’s face it - bad actors are in charge of the largest arsenal of nukes.  You have to hope that the knowledge of mutual destruction is enough of a deterrence here.  Sure, Russia can use nukes, but to what end?  It’s equivalent to suicide.  

So you would risk WWIII to give Ukraine a few missiles that will do nothing to help them surive in the long run anyway? Got it, sounds like a plan😂😂

[4th Time Around 5,059]

1 minute ago, thefamebitch said:

We should just give up Ukraine and let Russia walk away unscathed?  And then what happens when Russia wants to annex another country, just give in?  Just let them take countries one by one? When is kicking the can down the road enough?
 

The war is lost and sending Ukraine a few missiles will risk WWIII and still do nothing to help them win in the end. We have done all we can in terms of providing them with aid and it has failed to push Russia out of the territory they have seized. What is your solution? Send them missiles and start WWIII only to have Ukraine still lose? I am a realist and I dont want my country involved in a world war, imagine that.

[4th Time Around 5,059]

10 minutes ago, MACATL said:

So your solution?  Back down and let big scary Putin do as he pleases throughout the region?  Where does it stop?  No one wants WW3, but let’s face it - bad actors are in charge of the largest arsenal of nukes.  You have to hope that the knowledge of mutual destruction is enough of a deterrence here.  Sure, Russia can use nukes, but to what end?  It’s equivalent to suicide.  

Why are you talking about nukes? Russia can easily strike the United States with powerful conventional missiles. If you want to go around playing with fire by testing a Russian dictator with a huge arsenal of missles, fine. I on the other hand would like to avoid WWIII. 

[Bebe 17,289]

2 hours ago, BUtterfield 8 said:

Isn’t this a good thing?

Agree kind of surprised by the reaction here tbh. It’s giving very Russian propaganda becoming more and more mainstream.
 

This isn’t going to lead to Russia using nuclear weapons, sorry but they’ve already shown to be bluffing and they are more than happy to use NK weapons and soldiers to use against Ukraine, no reason why Ukraine should not be allowed to use the weapons supplied by the US (that would have been destroyed otherwise) to defend their territory and attack Russian bases.

Ukraine has no chance of defending their territory when they are forced into defending lines and unable to strike military targets beyond their territory (when Russia has no such restrictions).

We can have Russia just take and annex countries they want to rebuild their empire, understanding they don’t want to stop at Ukraine OR the US can have no boots on the ground, supplying weapons to the Ukraine that they would otherwise destroy because they are old and allow Ukraine to defend their territory and put pressure on Russia to end the conflict.

Russian citizens are not going to be thrilled with missiles flying over their heads destroying military targets in their backyard, that helps Ukraine when it comes to negotiating an end to the war.

Do we, in a perfect world want conflicts to escalate? No but let’s be factual: Russia started this war by illegally invading Ukrainian territory, it has bullied Ukraine, destroyed civilian infrastructure, threatened the rest of the world with nuclear retaliation if they intervene and provided aid to North Korea for support in their illegal war. It is not the fault of Ukraine or the US for pushing back. It is the fault of Russia.

 

This should have been done months ago.

[thefamebitch 834]

4 minutes ago, Bebe said:

It’s giving very Russian propaganda becoming more and more mainstream.

This is my exact thought as well.  

[4th Time Around 5,059]

31 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Agree kind of surprised by the reaction here tbh. It’s giving very Russian propaganda becoming more and more mainstream.
 

This isn’t going to lead to Russia using nuclear weapons, sorry but they’ve already shown to be bluffing and they are more than happy to use NK weapons and soldiers to use against Ukraine, no reason why Ukraine should not be allowed to use the weapons supplied by the US (that would have been destroyed otherwise) to defend their territory and attack Russian bases.

Ukraine has no chance of defending their territory when they are forced into defending lines and unable to strike military targets beyond their territory (when Russia has no such restrictions).

We can have Russia just take and annex countries they want to rebuild their empire, understanding they don’t want to stop at Ukraine OR the US can have no boots on the ground, supplying weapons to the Ukraine that they would otherwise destroy because they are old and allow Ukraine to defend their territory and put pressure on Russia to end the conflict.

Russian citizens are not going to be thrilled with missiles flying over their heads destroying military targets in their backyard, that helps Ukraine when it comes to negotiating an end to the war.

Do we, in a perfect world want conflicts to escalate? No but let’s be factual: Russia started this war by illegally invading Ukrainian territory, it has bullied Ukraine, destroyed civilian infrastructure, threatened the rest of the world with nuclear retaliation if they intervene and provided aid to North Korea for support in their illegal war. It is not the fault of Ukraine or the US for pushing back. It is the fault of Russia.

 

This should have been done months ago.

Russia does not need to use nukes to respond to the United States with powerful conventional weapons, they have already said they will if we give Ukraine long range missiles. How is letting Ukraine use missiles inside Russia going to help them win the ground war anyway?

Russian citizens are only going to be stiffened in their resolve to support the war if we start striking Russian territory because it makes the west look like a threat. You clearly know very little about Russian history if you think otherwise. I want to see Ukraine survive as a state, not get wiped from the face of the earth beccause they refused to concede territory that they cant retake anyway. We already gave them all the financial and military aid we could and it did not result in them retaking any of their lost territory, in fact the 2023 counter offensive was a complete disaster.

You some awfully comfortable about the prospect of WWIII starting for no other reason than "We can't let Russia win in Ukraine" I am a realist and think in terms of avoiding the worst possible outcome which means freezing this conflict as soon as possible and avoiding the loss of yet more Ukranian territory and potentially WWIII

[TaylorSwift 162,337]

52 minutes ago, King of the Fall said:

But we also don't want WWIII to start because of Ukraine

Let's blame the country that was invaded. Russia just fired 120 missiles and 90 drones at Ukraine but they are the bad guy...

[4th Time Around 5,059]

7 minutes ago, Teletubby said:

Let's blame the country that was invaded. Russia just fired 120 missiles and 90 drones at Ukraine but they are the bad guy...

Who's blaming Ukraine? Stop putting words in my mouth. I meant that I don't want WWIII to start over a war in Ukraine. I have been a supporter of giving Ukraine financial and military aid but these missiles is a bridge too far and Russia has already said it will retaliate against he US if we do.

Joe Biden has been a fairly good president domestically but an absolute disaster in terms of foreign policy and this announcement is just the latest example. It was not enough that he funded a slaughter of civilians in Gaza but now he wants to start WWIII

[TaylorSwift 162,337]

8 minutes ago, King of the Fall said:

Stop putting words in my mouth

i literally quoted you

 

[4th Time Around 5,059]

4 minutes ago, Teletubby said:

i literally quoted you

 

I said that I dont want WWIII because of Ukraine. Meaning the Ukraine War as a whole, not putting blame on Ukraine as a country.

Stop with the bullshit, you know very well that I was not blaming Ukraine for the war starting. Go read one of my earlier posts in this thread where I stated nobody is blaming Ukraine

[Ayesha Erotica 1,924]

1 hour ago, Bebe said:

This isn’t going to lead to Russia using nuclear weapons, sorry but they’ve already shown to be bluffing and they are more than happy to use NK weapons and soldiers to use against Ukraine, no reason why Ukraine should not be allowed to use the weapons supplied by the US (that would have been destroyed otherwise) to defend their territory and attack Russian bases.

 It is not the fault of Ukraine or the US for pushing back. It is the fault of Russia.

 

 

While I agree that this will not lead directly or immediately to nuclear war, and many red lines have been crossed with a bluff, and Putin will only resort to nuclear weapons as a very last last resort, and some long range strikes will probably remain below the threshold that will trigger this, I think Putin will retaliate against the US in other ways, using the same logic as you described yourself.

Putin will then deliver long-range weapons to Irán and Hámas or Hoûthis who will possibly attack US bases or US warships or US merchant ships off Israël or in the Red Sea, and Russia will justify it by saying that these arms deliveries are perfectly legal, that they are not responsible for them, and that Paléstine/Hoûthis have the right to defend themselves from Russia's point of view, just as the US grants this right to Ukraine.

The USA will then use this as a pretext for further mass weapon equipment of Isráel and then a spiral of mutual escalation is triggered, in which the US and Russia find themselves in a proxy war.

You can justify it all as you have described, it's all logical and has worked so far and I won't change your world view, but don't be surprised if there is an escalation and war in the Middle East that follows the same logic; that Russia will play the same game that the USA/FRA/UK are playing with Ukraine. Russia will change the course of the war, extend it to the Middle East and make its victory in Ukraine dependent on the situation there. Russia will defeat the USA by its own means.

 

[PartySick 172,448]

1 hour ago, King of the Fall said:

Joe Biden has been a fairly good president domestically but an absolute disaster in terms of foreign policy and this announcement is just the latest example. It was not enough that he funded a slaughter of civilians in Gaza but now he wants to start WWIII

I do wonder what you think the solutions should have been in both regions.

This isn't a way to trap or attack you or anything, I'm just curious on your take

Initially, fighting Russia out of Ukraine was absolutely the right thing to do but at what point do you think they (the US, NATO, Ukraine) should have said "k, we're not winning this, let's cede some land in exchange for peace and then hash it all out diplomatically later". Others have brought up a fair point, Putin won't stop until he's satisfied so if you give him an inch he'll take about half of Europe eventually.

As for the Gaza situation, I still think there's no real winning there. The US response is as good as it can be imo. Defensive aid to Israel, humanitarian aid to Gaza, diplomats in the middle trying to negotiate peace while the IDF and Hamas kill each other and innocent people in both countries. My only gripe is that Biden didn't (or wasn't allowed to due to congress) follow through with threats of sanctions for settlements and arms embargos for general terrorism and genocide.

Just seems like real lose-lose situations on our end imo. Another reason why other global powers need to stop being so reliant on US intervention and why the US needs to consider keeping itself to itself every now and then. That's one of the few things Trump is (kind of) right about imo

[Ayesha Erotica 1,924]

1 hour ago, King of the Fall said:

I meant that I don't want WWIII to start over a war in Ukraine.

I think Ukraine needs to think about what friends it has in the world. It's a bitter truth, but it doesn't have any. The USA had the idea that Ukraine should give up its nuclear weapons starting from 1994 and receive (worthless) security guarantees in return. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/01/ukraine-nuclear-weapons-newly-declassified-documents-russia-putin-war.html The UK and Russia also supported this, the three pressured it into giving them up, and so it came into effect. The USA stripped Ukraine of its clothes, disempowered it and helplessly threw it to Russia, the bear, to feed on. If Ukraine had kept its nuclear weapons, this war would never have happened, and smaller surrounding nations like Moldova and Slovakia would have wanted to become friends with it. The US cares little about Ukraine from a humanitarian perspective (look at the ratio of humanitarian to military aid, it's almost all military), it only uses Ukraine as a means to weaken Russia because Russia is not directly vulnerable due to its nuclear weapons. The media aren't free in Russia, neither are there right now in Ukraine (and Belarus), unconditional obedience is demanded and the motives of foreign military aid must not be questioned. In the end, every war ends and if it ends in 2025 with a ceasefire this would be better than going on until 2030/2035, the earlier the better, imo.

 

[4th Time Around 5,059]

51 minutes ago, PartySick said:

 I'm just curious on your take

Initially, fighting Russia out of Ukraine was absolutely the right thing to do but at what point do you think they (the US, NATO, Ukraine) should have said "k, we're not winning this, let's cede some land in exchange for peace and then hash it all out diplomatically later". Others have brought up a fair point, Putin won't stop until he's satisfied so if you give him an inch he'll take about half of Europe eventually.

I think people need to remember that the situation was entirely different when Russia first invaded Ukraine. They underestimated the size of the Ukranian army and how well organized it was. If there was any time to go all in and supply them like crazy, it was then. But instead we dithered and gave them aid drip by drip which allowed Ukraine to hold the line but never make a pushback. It also meant Russia had time to build up a massive army and organize the war industry. If you wanna pinpoint an event that lost Ukraine the war, it would be the failed 2023 counter offensive that broke it's teeth on the first line of Russian defenses. After that the war turned into one of attrition which is a death sentence for Ukraines long term chances of ever reclaiming it's territory. The Russia advantages in manpower and military production have only increased since then and they will keep getting bigger with time.

The point that Putin won't stop with part of Ukraine and the neutrality of the rump state that remains is one that I can understand but we are talking about a series of disastrous outcomes and I think we need to do everything we can to ensure the survival of at least part of Ukraine while avoiding the outbreak of a war between great powers.

I'm not gonna address the war in Gaza but you make a good point that Biden was kinda caught in an impossible situation but it still bothers me because of how morally reprehensible financial and military support for Israel is.