Is pop more calculated than we think?

[Dayman 5,989]

   Yes, it absolutely is. Even Gaga at her highest is subject to label interference. 

   Artists are not the boss - they are the product. Stories like what Kesha or Britney went through contractually and personally are not exceptions. They are the standard. 
 

   Stolen credits, exploitative contracts, NDAs, training to give PR responses to protect those above you. Speaking out against these practices no matter how transparent get artists in a lot of trouble. Some paying the price by being locked into a contractual hell or being blacklisted in some capacity.

 

   For an example in the world of Gaga. Just look at what happened to ARTPOP. Gaga didn’t get the lead single she wanted, so she leaked Aura. She didn’t get the second single she wanted and was forced to push DWUW - which seemingly had R Kelly on due to higher up decisions. The story on how he ended up on it was always inconsistent and it turns out “payment” for his verse was to be in the form of her appearing on a song of his. There was very much an attempt to use Gaga as a means to relaunch R Kelly’s career for new music from higher up. Gaga put her foot down after the video got shot though and immediately ceased promoting the song other than immediately releasing a version that replaced him with her original lyrics and Christina Aguilera. No amount of PR lines given could hide it. ARTPOP was an album she was so in love with and excited for - and at no point during its launch did she get to truly have control until they already created a sinking ship for her.

   A current situation we can examine is the case of Dr Luke and the way he has very transparently exploitive deals with producers and artists. Stolen credits with his name on them for songs he doesn’t ever even touch. Look at the credits for Aaron Joseph and Vaughn Olivers writing and production - he is credited in an ever present way even on songs that there was no chance he could have been involved with. It’s a rabbit hole that when you start adding things up it’s VERY obvious that Dr. Luke at this point may not even be producing anything himself - because there is clearly some kind of legal obligation that requires he be credited. Whether it be because perhaps it’s equipment or studio space owned by him that was used. Or maybe access to sound libraries and programming. Whatever it may be - we will never know unless there is legal reason for it to come out. And thanks to Kesha being someone that challenged this - we know it’s been going on for close to 2 decades at a minimum at this point. And he destroyed her mainstream career because of it. Speaking out gets you punished - a risk most won’t take.

 

   I mention this because people go after so many artists and attack them for having involvement with him. The reality is - no matter how big or how small, artists just don’t have the say and power people think they do. The only thing we DO know is that we don’t know the details of the behind the scenes. And the details that we do know are ones that reinforce that we should not be focusing blame on artists when those above them should be held accountable for the horrible things happening.

   Don’t fall for the PR statements that are approved to protect labels - and don’t believe statements made by artists to ever be reflective of their true feelings. Every single artist that has a contract is required to lie to some degree - no matter how authentic they are. Artists do what they do because they love performing and creating - and making it in any capacity is next to impossible. They stay in line as much as they can to not jeopardize losing the only chance they may ever get.

   Long story short - be kind about artists as much as possible. Because we can NEVER know what’s going on behind the scenes. But odds are, it’s not good at a bare minimum most of the time.

   

   

 

[River 105,701]

The entertainment industries has been following trends instead of creating ones, it starts with less than 3 min songs, slow/fast version and ends up with shitty live action remakes of animated movies.

They want to appeal so much to the young generation that they found easy quick money solutions in the price of quality. 
 

 

[HelloHangoverz 15,576]

I don't think artists themselves are too calculated. I think their management work strategically with what they get from the artist. Like I believe Gaga chose to write Joanne, and Bobby worked to engineer it as a "reset". I don't think Bobby told her to write Joanne because they need a reset, if that makes sense.

Edited August 12 by HelloHangoverz

[HelloHangoverz 15,576]

1 minute ago, River said:

The entertainment industries has been following trends instead of creating ones, it starts with less than 3 min songs, slow/fast version and ends up with shitty live action remakes of animated movies.

They want to appeal so much to the young generation that they found easy quick money solutions in the price of quality. 
 

 

such as Ice Spice's 25 minute album 

[Bronco 6,208]

I think some things are probably worse now and somethings are probably better. 

20 years ago, a pop star wasn't human really. They were an ideal, an image to live up to. Which is why when their real lives made news it was such a major pop culture moment. Probably the 2024 version of this is KPop etc where you have fans near enough forcing kpop stars to break up and issue apologies for getting into relationships. 

Now, in the US/UK and western markets generally, a pop star is allowed to show themselves. We elevate those who talk about their personal lives, we praise the "messy" moments. Ironically now being seen as a created persona (unless you are deliberately making a conceptual record/s) often results in chart failure - which I think is what is happening to Katy and why it feels like we're seeing way more DOA pop acts. 

[gagzus 14,585]

2 hours ago, Dayman said:

 

   For an example in the world of Gaga. Just look at what happened to ARTPOP. Gaga didn’t get the lead single she wanted, so she leaked Aura. She didn’t get the second single she wanted and was forced to push DWUW - which seemingly had R Kelly on due to higher up decisions. The story on how he ended up on it was always inconsistent and it turns out “payment” for his verse was to be in the form of her appearing on a song of his. There was very much an attempt to use Gaga as a means to relaunch R Kelly’s career for new music from higher up. Gaga put her foot down after the video got shot though and immediately ceased promoting the song other than immediately releasing a version that replaced him with her original lyrics and Christina Aguilera. No amount of PR lines given could hide it. ARTPOP was an album she was so in love with and excited for - and at no point during its launch did she get to truly have control until they already created a sinking ship for her.

   

To add to this point let’s not forget Gaga infamously said once (and never again, probably for PR reasons) in a magazine interview that they even auto tuned and changed her vocals (presumably on the likes of Aura mostly) without her permission, and she didn’t know until the songs were sent back from being mixed and mastered. AND not to mention Troy infamously told her to just “be pretty” hence why he image became more sexual and glam in 2012. And we know for a fact she was supposed to release Partynauseous with Kendrick Lamar in Sepetember 2012, as well as Sex Dreams as the lead single (before she wanted Aura).
 

Plus it’s quite obvious the album went through 3 iterations with lots of label interference before the one we got. She wanted a darker more raw album about the price of Fame. Then they made her make a more fun album, to which she clearly wanted to make a LOT more hip-hop, r&b and techno influence on with less serious messages and vocals (presumably bc she was sick of them just telling her to be like every pop star) , but then they made her tone it down and “Gaga” it up a bit more.

Edited August 12 by gagzus

[nATAH 42,766]

5 hours ago, Didymus said:

Gaga signed an extremely bad contract when she started because she wanted to be famous asap.

what's the tea on this? i don't know anything about her contracts 

[nATAH 42,766]

2 hours ago, HelloHangoverz said:

Like I believe Gaga chose to write Joanne, and Bobby worked to engineer it as a "reset". I don't think Bobby told her to write Joanne because they need a reset, if that makes sense.

i've always believed that's been her dynamic since bobby took over; she says "i'm going to/i have made XYZ" and bobby and interscope will work out what's going work best as a lead single, a promo single, the album release window etc and hope she's on the same page lol

but pre-bobby, i've gotten the sense she acted like that back then but had a lot more resistance from troy and interscope because they probably thought they knew better than her and so she would act out, announce singles to fans or promise this and that or leak stuff

once it all imploded during the ARTPOP era, i think she was just done fighting (aka the opening of the GUY video ) and felt very defeated which she vaguely and legally explains in that talk she did in 2014/15, where she talks about her distaste for being used and selling off products (that fans like to misinterpret )

[nATAH 42,766]

59 minutes ago, gagzus said:

To add to this point let’s not forget Gaga infamously said once (and never again, probably for PR reasons) in a magazine interview that they even auto tuned and changed her vocals (presumably on the likes of Aura mostly) without her permission, and she didn’t know until the songs were sent back from being mixed and mastered. AND not to mention Troy infamously told her to just “be pretty” hence why he image became more sexual and glam in 2012. And we know for a fact she was supposed to release Partynauseous with Kendrick Lamar in Sepetember 2012, as well as Sex Dreams as the lead single (before she wanted Aura).
 

Plus it’s quite obvious the album went through 3 iterations with lots of label interference before the one we got. She wanted a darker more raw album about the price of Fame. Then they made her make a more fun album, to which she clearly wanted to make a LOT more hip-hop, r&b and techno influence on with less serious messages and vocals (presumably bc she was sick of them just telling her to be like every pop star) , but then they made her tone it down and “Gaga” it up a bit more.

oh wow, i didn't know any of this  i really do feel like i could talk about her career forever and never get bored omg, it's so fascinating

[Didymus 34,379]

23 minutes ago, NATAH said:

what's the tea on this? i don't know anything about her contracts 

She signed what is known as a 360 contract. It basically means the label agrees to market and support the **** out of you, while also demanding pretty much all of your revenue. This is why Gaga went broke while on tour. She made literally zero money from her digital sales, performing, merch,.., Interscope took all of it, she signed all of it away in exchange for promotion.

I would say she was pretty safe because her business savvy father made sure the contract was renegotiable etc. If you get famous, the label can't afford to lose you. But it was still a massive gamble. Essentially you artificially shoot yourself to stardom to then hope you become a big enough name to bargain your way out of an Ursula deal. Kesha failed to become big enough to do this, with all the consequences we know.

[gagzus 14,585]

18 minutes ago, NATAH said:

oh wow, i didn't know any of this  i really do feel like i could talk about her career forever and never get bored omg, it's so fascinating

I remember specifically her teasing the Kendrick collab and saying she was going to a meeting with her label on little monsters.com and that the single was coming September 9th. September came and went and then she posted about creative differences hence why the song got shelved. But obvs (relating to label interference) behind the scenes Kendrick’s label wanted her to tone the “gayness” down for his audience

[Didymus 34,379]

1 hour ago, gagzus said:

To add to this point let’s not forget Gaga infamously said once (and never again, probably for PR reasons) in a magazine interview that they even auto tuned and changed her vocals (presumably on the likes of Aura mostly) without her permission, and she didn’t know until the songs were sent back from being mixed and mastered.

Well, in that interview she said this was done on all of her albums up to that point (ARTPOP). She said they specifically wanted to erase her vibrato. RedOne, I believe, made similar comments, saying a label rep could basically come in any time into the studio and make changes without her permission. Again, a sign of a very bad early contract.

[nATAH 42,766]

18 minutes ago, Didymus said:

She signed what is known as a 360 contract. It basically means the label agrees to market and support the **** out of you, while also demanding pretty much all of your revenue. This is why Gaga went broke while on tour. She made literally zero money from her digital sales, performing, merch,.., Interscope took all of it, she signed all of it away in exchange for promotion.

I would say she was pretty safe because her business savvy father made sure the contract was renegotiable etc. If you get famous, the label can't afford to lose you. But it was still a massive gamble. Essentially you artificially shoot yourself to stardom to then hope you become a big enough name to bargain your way out of an Ursula deal. Kesha failed to become big enough to do this, with all the consequences we know.

that's f*cking insane  could you imagine if she didn't have someone like her dad to help her?

[Guest]

Of course it is incredibly calculated. Pop is the most marketed music genre and always has been.

[Lucas 24,258]

Wait until you learn about kpop lol