Far-right libertarian Javier Milei wins Argentina presidential election

[faysalaaa 5,336]

8 hours ago, Bronco said:

They kind of are if you actually look at what mainstream libertarian ideology is about in relation to Milei & the general western approach to libertariansim. . 

Libertarians traditionally talk a great game about personal liberty, but the reality of what is pushed for/implemented by existing libertarian politicians like Milei is one where the protective apparatus of the state is removed and social rights aren't protected by the state as they are seen as a block to the freedom of the market. 

Yes they believe a true free market can solve social rights, and that state funding is always corrupted, and will cause more harm long term. But none of this contradicts or effect Democracy or equal rights.

Im not a Libertarian anymore, but I also dont think they are against Democracy or equal rights. I learned about equal rights from them as they spoke my language on equal rights more than Leftists did.

[Shadow 6,697]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12770147/fatima-florez-javier-milei-relationship-playboy-president.html

The lioness?

 

[weed 78,957]

omg he does cosplay... and his stylist made him emulate Wolverine on purpose.. gag!

[Guest]

On 11/20/2023 at 6:19 AM, Bronco said:

They kind of are if you actually look at what mainstream libertarian ideology is about in relation to Milei & the general western approach to libertariansim. . 

Libertarians traditionally talk a great game about personal liberty, but the reality of what is pushed for/implemented by existing libertarian politicians like Milei is one where the protective apparatus of the state is removed and social rights aren't protected by the state as they are seen as a block to the freedom of the market. 

 

Not defending him at all, but he has stated that he stands for freedom of choice in aspects regarding to people's personal lives.

That being said he's pro life, so that's contradictory.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Shadow said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12770147/fatima-florez-javier-milei-relationship-playboy-president.html

The lioness?

 

She's actually an incredibly talented impersonator and comedian tbh

[faysalaaa 5,336]

The whole world is electing people like Trump and sending the same message, and it seems like the other side is in a constant state of shock, without even attempting to actually ask why.

People want change, but neo liberals still want to push the establishment, status quo, corporate rule, bottom down we tell you what to do, you shut up and take it, if there is an economic crisis we blame you and punish you for it and bail the rich.. 

The whole world is vomiting these policies, they hate it, they will elect anyone that promises change.

[Bronco 25,129]

14 hours ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Yes they believe a true free market can solve social rights, and that state funding is always corrupted, and will cause more harm long term. But none of this contradicts or effect Democracy or equal rights.

Im not a Libertarian anymore, but I also dont think they are against Democracy or equal rights. I learned about equal rights from them as they spoke my language on equal rights more than Leftists did.

You can't have a democracy in a system where the rights of the individual outweigh all others. You can't have equal rights in a system where protection is only available at cost. 

Also, please please please read actual political philosophy texts that form the basis of liberalism & libertarianism before saying Javier is one of them or good. Bodily autonomy is a principle of libertarian thought - Milei opposes abortion. He opposes free movement, a founding principle in all liberal political philosophy. 

And as I've said previously, stop saying leftists. It's not a word that described a legitimate political ideal outside of the mediascape. It's a catchall term used by people pushing partisan politics. 

[Bronco 25,129]

9 hours ago, Lukas96 said:

Not defending him at all, but he has stated that he stands for freedom of choice in aspects regarding to people's personal lives.

That being said he's pro life, so that's contradcitory.

Yeah, he can't stand for freedom of choice in all aspects of a person's personal life if he intends to go through with his pledge to have a referendum on whether or not women have bodily autonomy. 

And honestly, like every "libertarian" elected previously in history I can guarantee you one thing. He'll be "liberal" and pro-freedom right up until he's at risk of removal from office in an election. 

[faysalaaa 5,336]

26 minutes ago, Bronco said:

please please please read actual political philosophy texts that form the basis of liberalism & libertarianism before saying Javier is one of them or good.

I never said Javier is good or that hes a libertarian! I literally said multiple times I have no idea who the guy is, and made it clear in all my comments I wasnt talking about him..

26 minutes ago, Bronco said:

You can't have a democracy in a system where the rights of the individual outweigh all others. You can't have equal rights in a system where protection is only available at cost. 

In Libertarian philosophy, they dont believe individual rights outweigh the collective right as you said. They believe the collective right cant outweigh individual rights. And sorry I did not understand what you said about equal rights..

26 minutes ago, Bronco said:

Bodily autonomy is a principle of libertarian thought - Milei opposes abortion. He opposes free movement, a founding principle in all liberal political philosophy. 

Opposing Abortion does not contradict Libertarianism at all, as some might make the argument that the baby has bodily autonomy too. Abortion is a very grey area in the Libertarian party (and for most people) as science still cant determine when a fetus becomes a human being. This is why bodily autonomy is an weak argument for Pro Choice.

26 minutes ago, Bronco said:

And as I've said previously, stop saying leftists. It's not a word that described a legitimate political ideal outside of the mediascape. It's a catchall term used by people pushing partisan politics. 

Are you saying Leftists is not a real thing I can point to?

[Bronco 25,129]

6 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

In Libertarian philosophy, they dont believe individual rights outweigh the collective as you said. They believe the collective right cant outweigh the individual. I did not understand what you said about equal rights..

You literally just reworded what I said to say the exact same thing as what I said, but in a way you feel happy with. 
"Individual rights outweigh the collective" is wrong, yet you then say "collective rights cant outweigh the individual". LITERALLY identical sentences & meanings. 

Also please explain to me how you can have democracy in a system where a collective can't outweigh the individual? When democracy's very function relies on a collective vote to decide direction. 

6 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Opposing Abortion does not contradict Libertarianism at all, as some might make the argument that the baby has bodily autonomy too. Abortion is a very grey area in the LIbertarian party and for most people as science still cant determine when a fetus becomes a human.

Opposing abortion absolutely does contradict libertarianist values of bodily autonomy. Because by having any anti-abortion law in effect you are doing the exact thing libertarianism opposes - having the government regulate a personal freedom. You also are via anti-abortion law making it so that the government creates a tiered social caste system where some lack the same freedoms as others. 

 

11 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Are you saying Leftists is not a real thing I can point to?

I'm saying leftist isn't an accepted term in political academia. It is a real thing, I did not say that it wasn't. I said that it doesn't point to any legitimate collective of political though. I said that it is a term created by partisans pushing a specific policy agenda. It has no set meaning in the political word. It is primarily used by right wing commentators, politicos & client journalists to describe a vision of the "enemy". There is no set definition of leftism in the political world. 

Where as if we use actual political terms we can point to specific works, policies, ideas/ideals, figures. "Leftist" has no grounding and relies on individual assertion of meaning from user to user. 

Your version of a leftist may include me for example, I'd use it to refer to a specific body of activism within the UK Labour party that I oppose. Instantly we have contradictory views. Where as when we're currently talking about libertarianism & a specific political leader - we're actually aware of what the other is referencing. 

[faysalaaa 5,336]

Just now, Bronco said:

You literally just reworded what I said to say the exact same thing as what I said, but in a way you feel happy with. 
"Individual rights outweigh the collective" is wrong, yet you then say "collective rights cant outweigh the individual". LITERALLY identical sentences & meanings. 

Also please explain to me how you can have democracy in a system where a collective can't outweigh the individual? When democracy's very function relies on a collective vote to decide direction. 

Nobody believes in real Democracy, as every Democracy (including American Democracy) has restrictions. For example, if Americans voted to bring back slavery, they wont be able to do that because the constitution outweighs Democracy. And the same in a Libertarian society, they have their own version of the constitution that puts a limit to Democracy, but they still support Democracy.

10 minutes ago, Bronco said:

Opposing abortion absolutely does contradict libertarianist values of bodily autonomy. Because by having any anti-abortion law in effect you are doing the exact thing libertarianism opposes - having the government regulate a personal freedom. You also are via anti-abortion law making it so that the government creates a tiered social caste system where some lack the same freedoms as others. 

Abortion is not a bodily autonomy issue because the woman has another living being inside of her. Pro Life Libertarians believe in the baby bodily autonomy too.

14 minutes ago, Bronco said:

I'm saying leftist isn't an accepted term in political academia. It is a real thing, I did not say that it wasn't. I said that it doesn't point to any legitimate collective of political though. I said that it is a term created by partisans pushing a specific policy agenda. It has no set meaning in the political word. It is primarily used by right wing commentators, politicos & client journalists to describe a vision of the "enemy". There is no set definition of leftism in the political world. 

Where as if we use actual political terms we can point to specific works, policies, ideas/ideals, figures. "Leftist" has no grounding and relies on individual assertion of meaning from user to user. 

Your version of a leftist may include me for example, I'd use it to refer to a specific body of activism within the UK Labour party that I oppose. Instantly we have contradictory views. Where as when we're currently talking about libertarianism & a specific political leader - we're actually aware of what the other is referencing. 

Im not trying to be academic! From my experience, the left also refer to themselves as leftists, and I never saw that word as a negative.

[Bronco 25,129]

43 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Nobody believes in real Democracy, as every Democracy (including American Democracy) has restrictions. For example, if Americans voted to bring back slavery, they wont be able to do that because the constitution outweighs Democracy. And the same in a Libertarian society, they have their own version of the constitution that puts a limit to Democracy, but they still support Democracy.

Except for the fact the constitution can be altered through the democratic process - if there was political will power to achieve a change it could be done. I wasn't talking about "real democracy" what ever it is you think that is. Based on your example being a totally inaccurate understanding of the US's constitutional process, I'm not sure you actually know. 
Nothing you've said discounts my point about democracy needing a collective to outweigh the individual. In fact, the more you say the more you're actually proving it. 

 

 

47 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Abortion is not a bodily autonomy issue because the woman has another living being inside of her. Pro Life Libertarians believe in the baby bodily autonomy too.

But it is. And here you are saying that women have no bodily automony when pregnant, because someone else's bodily autonomy is more imporant than theres. You say it's not a body autonomy issue, but you are unable to define why it isn't an issue of a woman's body autonomy without explaining it as an issue of bodily autonomy. 

 

 

49 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Im not trying to be academic! From my experience, the left also refer to themselves as leftists, and I never saw that word as a negative.

American twitter users are not the left. 

You're trying to discuss issues of political academy - political thought - with me. You're talking academics whether you realise it or not. 

[faysalaaa 5,336]

7 minutes ago, Bronco said:

Except for the fact the constitution can be altered through the democratic process - if there was political will power to achieve a change it could be done. I wasn't talking about "real democracy" what ever it is you think that is. Based on your example being a totally inaccurate understanding of the US's constitutional process, I'm not sure you actually know. 
Nothing you've said discounts my point about democracy needing a collective to outweigh the individual. In fact, the more you say the more you're actually proving it. 

 

 

But it is. And here you are saying that women have no bodily automony when pregnant, because someone else's bodily autonomy is more imporant than theres. You say it's not a body autonomy issue, but you are unable to define why it isn't an issue of a woman's body autonomy without explaining it as an issue of bodily autonomy. 

 

 

American twitter users are not the left. 

You're trying to discuss issues of political academy - political thought - with me. You're talking academics whether you realise it or not. 

Democracy does need a collective to outweigh the individual, but Libertarians put restrictions on where the red line is based on their values. Just like how every political ideology adjusts Democracy based on their own values

Abortion is a bodily autonomy issue, but not just for the woman, but also the baby inside of her. Im actually pro choice, but not for bodily autonomy reasons. I think the bodily autonomy argument is very week and does not make sense considering it discounts the other body inside the woman. But im not arguing about what I believe, im simply explaining how its a grey area for Libertarians.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Bronco said:

Yeah, he can't stand for freedom of choice in all aspects of a person's personal life if he intends to go through with his pledge to have a referendum on whether or not women have bodily autonomy. 
 

Most constitunionalists agree that a law (specially ones regarding penal matter) can't be modified by anything or anyone besides the congress, so a referendum would've no effect. It's also not in his official electoral platform.