Flyers defenseman refused to wear jersey because of pride colors

[Natalia Kills 418]

15 hours ago, Dennis said:

He can be actively anti-LGBT all he wants in his private life. But I think when you have a big platform and influential role in society, you should act better or simply lose that spotlight, especially sports which are supposed to make people come together and enjoy the game. Sports organizations in particular have a responsability to their communities and should fire toxic players.

There are kids who grow up watching these players and learn from them. I don't have patience or empathy for people who misuse their influence or fame to create future generations of homophobes.
 

That's fair bro, I just think we have to be cautious about the impact of trying too hard because it starts to become authoritarian.

In my eyes, the greater good is keeping him from actively hating LGBT people because it destroyed his career. Firing him from the team just creates an artificial agreement and will probably intimidate other players into agreeing with management rather than making them actually accept LGBT people. It's partly why we've ended up with woke culture wars and Trump.

He'll come around with time. Even playing with teammates who wear the jersey is a good start.

[Dennis 8,391]

1 hour ago, Pineapple said:

He'll come around with time. Even playing with teammates who wear the jersey is a good start.

Except that he didn't play with teammates who wore the jersey. In the end, everyone switched out their pride jerseys before the game started and that's when he actually joined the game. So not only he refused to wear the jersey but refused to even participate when other players wore it.

So I guess you're fine with that type of authoritarianism right? The idea that he ruins the event to impose his bigoted beliefs on others.

But yeah god forbid we expect people to do their job in a non-bigoted way, apparently that helps get trump elected! Well spoiler alert, conservatives will hate you no matter what you do. Notice how they were defending FIFA in Qatar when they banned german players from wearing pride armbands. So it doesn't matter.

[Natalia Kills 418]

4 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Except that he didn't. In the end, everyone switched out their pride jerseys before the game started and that's when he actually joined the game.

So I guess you're fine with that type of authoritarianism right? The idea that he ruins the event to impose his bigoted beliefs on others.

But yeah god forbid we expect people to do their job in a non-bigoted way, apparently that helps get trump elected! Well spoiler alert, conservatives will hate you no matter what you do. Notice how they were defending FIFA in Qatar when they banned german players from wearing pride armbands. So it doesn't matter.

I understand you're rightfully emotional about the topic and I think you're right in your motivations, but I'd just want to respectfully put some human context into the issue rather than it being "us vs. them."

I disagree with the idea that conservatives will hate you no matter what you do, that statement is too general to have any value. There's so many other layers to what being conservative is. I'm a socially liberal one/centrist myself and I know many who are the same and those that aren't, just like I know left-wing friends who are opened minded and those that hate anything that violates their view.  

I meant to say with Trump, forced radical change alienates people and makes them become populists because they see their view of the world attacked rather than have it openly and progressively challenged. They're not right in their beliefs at all, hence why it's homophobia. But the best way to truly solve a phobia is to approach it rationally and gradually rather than punishing them. 

Are you at least able to see how my logic works? I fully respect you and your right to your opinion if you don't by the way, it's just a discussion of ideas at the end of the day. We both want the same result, there's just different methods to getting it. 

[Dennis 8,391]

1 hour ago, Pineapple said:

I understand you're rightfully emotional about the topic and I think you're right in your motivations, but I'd just want to respectfully put some human context into the issue rather than it being "us vs. them."

I disagree with the idea that conservatives will hate you no matter what you do

I'm not emotional. I'm pragmatic and realistic. I'm not going to sugar coat it. Every single right that the LGBT community has acquired was opposed by an overwhelming majority of conservatives. And such progress was made possibly only thanks to liberals and independents. Yes some conservatives are tolerant but they are a small minority. How many republicans voted for the same sex protection act in the house?

They can work on improving themselves, but I'm not gonna say that oh conservatives support and accept gays just for the sake of sounding centrist and neutral. The truth is they are not, maybe they'll get there someday but not yet.

[Natalia Kills 418]

36 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I'm not emotional. I'm pragmatic and realistic. I'm not going to sugar coat it. Every single right that the LGBT community has acquired was opposed by an overwhelming majority of conservatives. And such progress was made possibly only thanks to liberals and independents. Yes some conservatives are tolerant but they are a small minority. How many republicans voted for the same sex protection act in the house?

They can work on improving themselves, but I'm not gonna say that oh conservatives support and accept gays just for the sake of sounding centrist and neutral. The truth is they are not, maybe they'll get there someday but not yet.

That's totally fair, I realize where there are gaps in my thinking! I understand and respect your point.

Are you a hockey fan? If so, thoughts on this year's NHL?

[G U C C I 5,578]

Just my two cents here but this guy doesn’t seem hateful or mean spirited at all towards the lgbt community just that it wasn’t something he wanted to broadcast on his own jersey because of his religion. I was raised in a very conservative Christian home and it took well into my late twenties to completely undo all the conditioning that was instilled in me to have a knee jerk reaction of sin and damnation towards lgbt. It is rooted deep with in conservative Christianity and until you do the work to undo that mindset it can be very hard to place yourself in the position of supporting them as a community. 
 

Luckily I’m in my late thirties and have fully undone the damage but my mom is very much still active in the church. However, she herself has come a long way and now loves and accepts all of my gay friends and basically anyone as equals without having to bring religious beliefs into it. She will not however attend a gay wedding of any kind even though she will wish the couple well and send a gift. She can’t bring herself to go that far yet but she is working on it. I think this is the level this guy is. He can accept it but active support where he broadcasts acceptance of being a homosexual just is a bridge he can’t cross. Maybe one day he can. 

[GagaCarpet 16]

7 hours ago, Karl said:

Religious beliefs are bogus, as an advocate for real life equality, I'm not afraid to mock people for believing non proven rubbish, the same way people mock toxic conspiracy theorists. Not the same as someone's sexual orientation, the left want to have equality, equality will never happen with religion. Sure there are moderate religious people, don't have a problem with that but they are still believing made up nonsense with no scientific proof. The effects religion have on people, especially where religion is built into the countries laws is way worse than me mocking someone for believing in a man in the sky. 

If you are ok with mocking people because of their religion, you are actually violating articles from the universal declaration of human rights, which, to me, is kinda serious.

To you, religion may be "made up nonsense with no scientific proof", but that doesn't give you right to disrespect someone because of it.

Saying that , doesn't make you better than him. He actually stated his respect for LGBT people and he has the right to not be involved in something he doesn't fully understands/agrees/supports. 

 

[Dennis 8,391]

 

2 hours ago, G U C C I said:

Just my two cents here but this guy doesn’t seem hateful or mean spirited at all towards the lgbt community just that it wasn’t something he wanted to broadcast on his own jersey because of his religion.

Ah yeah not hateful or mean spirited, but with his behavior he ruined an event that happens only once a year for this marginalized community, and ultimately his teammates had to switch out their pride jerseys after the warmups so that he plays with them in the game.

It's insane, how I'm seeing this kind of logic on Gagadaily out of all places. This goes to show how normalized homophobia is. And we still don't take it as seriously as racism and other forms of discrimination.

You're telling me if this guy refused for example to participate in a black history themed event for the community that pays for his salary, that we shouldn't be calling them racist? Or that we should be understanding of the fact that they've grown up in a racist family?

How about we simply stop making excuses for shitty behavior from grown men? Religion or not, at least be respectful. If you don't wanna participate fine, don't. Stay in the locker room or keep a low profile. But dont go out acting smug talking to the press and proudly telling them about how your bigotry is simply you being true to yourself.

 

[Karl 3,575]

4 hours ago, GagaCarpet said:

If you are ok with mocking people because of their religion, you are actually violating articles from the universal declaration of human rights, which, to me, is kinda serious.

To you, religion may be "made up nonsense with no scientific proof", but that doesn't give you right to disrespect someone because of it.

Saying that , doesn't make you better than him. He actually stated his respect for LGBT people and he has the right to not be involved in something he doesn't fully understands/agrees/supports. 

 

And this is why I dislike religion, it's "protected" by the same people who want gay rights and freedom of expression, even though religion gives some countries the excuse to literally execute gay people or throw them in jail because of a sky wizard.

It's hypocritical to want gay rights but also to protect religion from scrutiny. We should be able to criticise giant billion dollar making organisations built on brainwashing people from birth in my opinion. I'm not necessarily critizing religious people, I actually feel sorry for them having mostly been indoctrinated unwillingly as children, more the institution of religion.