Macron will not ask for ‘forgiveness’ over the colonization of Algeria

[alecks 751]

30 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said:

Don't deflect to the East to ignore the West. We are talking about France, so the West is in context. 

Of course Easrtern countries should also pay for their crimes. 

I’m not deflecting, I’m telling you the whole world has done it. It’s not a regional thing that only a handful of countries are responsible for. And several of those countries have changed hands or dissolved and replaced their governments in the time since participating in colonization. Many of the people occupying formerly colonized nations today had their descendants arrive after the colonization was over. Do you exempt immigrants who arrived afterwards for something their ancestors weren’t even around for?

I don’t disagree at all that there was a great amount of wrong that was done. That’s indisputable. But there’s no realistic way of calculating what would be owed, to whom, and by whom. And the people it would likely affect most would be from poorer family backgrounds that didn’t reap any rewards  

It’s a complicated situation and not as (somewhat) straightforward as something like reparations for slavery could be. At least in that case you could genealogically trace the ancestry of slave owners down to the currently living descendants sitting on top of their inherited generational wealth. (Like Anderson Cooper sitting on top of his Vanderbilt fortune while acting like a self made man)
 

And if we really want to go down the rabbit hole, there’s still colonization going on today, we just call it missionary work. 

[Morphine Prince 109,654]

4 minutes ago, alecks said:

I’m not deflecting, I’m telling you the whole world has done it. It’s not a regional thing that only a handful of countries are responsible for. And several of those countries have changed hands or dissolved and replaced their governments in the time since participating in colonization. Many of the people occupying formerly colonized nations today had their descendants arrive after the colonization was over. Do you exempt immigrants who arrived afterwards for something their ancestors weren’t even around for?

I don’t disagree at all that there was a great amount of wrong that was done. That’s indisputable. But there’s no realistic way of calculating what would be owed, to whom, and by whom. And the people it would likely affect most would be from poorer family backgrounds that didn’t reap any rewards  

It’s a complicated situation and not as (somewhat) straightforward as something like reparations for slavery could be. At least in that case you could genealogically trace the ancestry of slave owners down to the currently living descendants sitting on top of their inherited generational wealth. 
 

And if we really want to go down the rabbit hole, there’s still colonization going on today, we just call it missionary work. 

You seriously cannot think reparations only looks like a paycheck? 

There are numerous ways reparations can be achieved. Infrastructure, education, healthcare, job opportunities, clean water, clean environment. Many issues affecting nations that many colonizer countries are currently the ones partially responsible for. 

Please stop with the ridiculous notion that we need to got back thousands of years for reparations. We are referring to modern countries and governments who colonized or enslaved literally in the last 2-3 centuries and are directly responsible for the conditions we live in today. 

We are not going to go tax the Romans. Absurd. 

 

[Dennis 8,391]

59 minutes ago, dit said:

France's colonization of Algeria was ESPECIALLY brutal. They literally massacered millions of Algerians. It was more like a genocide. At one point, because they killed so many Algeriens, some of the cities were starting to have French / European plurality / near majority.

Sorry but you think the other colonizers were "nicer"? 20 million natives are estimated to have died in the Americas, probably on land that we live on today.

How many indians have died as a result of british colonization? And that's India alone. Not even counting the rest of the british colonies.

Same thing with Russia/USSR. 6 million poles have died to Germany and USSR. Did Russia and Germany pay reparations to Poland? Germany apologized but Russia still refuses. And in Ukraine alone, 3 million were estimated to have died in the Holodomor. And that's Ukraine alone, not counting their eastern colonies. And Russia is trying to genocide them again but the World for the most part is turning a blind eye.

Colonization was ALWAYS brutal. There weren't "nice colonizers". So singling out France is rather hypocritical. All major powers today are guilty of having killed millions either through colonization or terroritorial expansion. And some are still doing it in current day and age. So let's work on stopping what we can stop.

[alecks 751]

2 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said:

You seriously cannot think reparations only looks like a paycheck? 

There are numerous ways reparations can be achieved. Infrastructure, education, healthcare, job opportunities, clean water, clean environment. Many issues affecting nations that many colonizer countries are currently the ones partially responsible for. 

Does that not cost money? Whether the “paycheck” is going to the country or the citizen, it’s still a check. 

The alternative would be sending people and resources there to help build the country up but that…would be colonization 

[Morphine Prince 109,654]

6 minutes ago, alecks said:

Does that not cost money? Whether the “paycheck” is going to the country or the citizen, it’s still a check. 

The alternative would be sending people and resources there to help build the country up but that…would be colonization 

Allocation of funds isn't the same thing as just writing a check. 

Reparations between nations would have to be mutually agreed to and not colonization. This concept is so far from reality that neither you or I can properly discuss it. 

People will put all sorts of excuses not to have reparations but will never ask to stop benefitting from colonization. 

[alecks 751]

11 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said:

There are numerous ways reparations can be achieved. Infrastructure, education, healthcare, job opportunities, clean water, clean environment. Many issues affecting nations that many colonizer countries are currently the ones partially responsible for. 

I found this to be the most laughable. Like, there’s even parts of the US that lack infrastructure, education, healthcare, job opportunities, clean water, and a clean environment. Sooooo, whose fault is that? Britain, Spain, and France?

[ScreamQueen007 415]

Why should he apologize? He wasn’t the one who partook in it. It would be rather hollow for him to apologize. 

[Morphine Prince 109,654]

1 minute ago, alecks said:

I found this to be the most laughable. Like, there’s even parts of the US that lack infrastructure, education, healthcare, job opportunities, clean water, and a clean environment. Sooooo, whose fault is that? Britain, Spain, and France?

The fault of the United States for purposefuly red-lining and underfunding communities. I'm sure you're aware US cities were designed base on racial lines. Up until this day poorer, urban communities with POC communities suffer due to decisions made in the past. In my own city there are communities where cancer rates are abnormally high thanks to policies enacted decades ago. I'm sure you are aware these policies come from Jim Crowe, which comes from a backlash to the abolition of slavery, which comes from empires trying to create wealth in the Americas via colonization. 

Interesting how this is so laughable to you when it's directly caused by racism and colonization. 

[alecks 751]

2 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said:

Allocation of funds isn't the same thing as just writing a check. 

Reparations between nations would have to be mutually agreed to and not colonization. This concept is so far from reality that neither you or I can properly discuss it. 

People will put all sorts of excuses not to have reparations but will never ask to stop benefitting from colonization. 

I agree. It’s very far from reality and just not possible. Also, just being real, there are a few countries out there that failed to thrive after colonization due to their own actions, even after having a temporary economic boost from it.  

[alecks 751]

1 minute ago, Morphine Prince said:

The fault of the United States for purposefuly red-lining and underfunding communities. I'm sure you're aware US cities were designed base on racial lines. Up until this day poorer, urban communities with POC communities suffer due to decisions made in the past. In my own city there are communities where cancer rates are abnormally high thanks to policies enacted decades ago. I'm sure you are aware these policies come from Jim Crowe, which comes from a backlash to the abolition of slavery, which comes from empires trying to create wealth in the Americas via colonization. 

Interesting how this is so laughable to you when it's directly caused by racism and colonization. 

You think those ideas just popped up on their own? Or were those racist policies and biases brought over on the same boats that brought the colonizers and slaves? 
 

The point is you can take almost any issue on Earth today and trace it back to colonialism like playing Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon

[Morphine Prince 109,654]

1 minute ago, alecks said:

The point is you can take almost any issue on Earth today and trace it back to colonialism

And this is why they need to pay up. 

[alecks 751]

Just now, Morphine Prince said:

And this is why they need to pay up. 

Yes, but the hard part is identifying just who “they” are. It’s not an easy task.
 

It’s impossible to ensure the ones who benefitted pay up without also unintentionally shaking down poor people who didn’t benefit and had nothing to do with it. Then they’re worse off and the wealthy are still wealthy. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I truly do understand your point and where you’re coming from. I just think it’s had too large of an impact on the way the world is shaped today that it would be impossible to untangle and right every wrong without creating new victims in the process. 

[Debithius 6,056]

While we are at it, let's stop single out some European countries for trying to colonize the entire world when that's exactly what other nations in Asia or the Middle East/Africa tried to do. I mean the Asians (today's Mongolia) almost did it while wiping out approx 40 million people. 

[dit 46,738]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

Sorry but you think the other colonizers were "nicer"? 20 million natives are estimated to have died in the Americas, probably on land that we live on today.

How many indians have died as a result of british colonization? And that's India alone. Not even counting the rest of the british colonies.

Same thing with Russia/USSR. 6 million poles have died to Germany and USSR. Did Russia and Germany pay reparations to Poland? Germany apologized but Russia still refuses. And in Ukraine alone, 3 million were estimated to have died in the Holodomor. And that's Ukraine alone, not counting their eastern colonies. And Russia is trying to genocide them again but the World for the most part is turning a blind eye.

Colonization was ALWAYS brutal. There weren't "nice colonizers". So singling out France is rather hypocritical. All major powers today are guilty of having killed millions either through colonization or terroritorial expansion. And some are still doing it in current day and age. So let's work on stopping what we can stop.

I NEVER said other colonies were nice. Where did I say that? I said that Algeria's colonization was brutal. The ones you mentioned were also insanely brutal. Two things can be true at the same time. Nice deflection.

And there is no singling out France. We are calling out a lot of these countries to FACE THEIR PAST and to formally apologies to the nations their colonized. LOADS of countries have done it. Why should we not expect it out of France too and pressure it to do so as well. Formal apologies are symbolic gestures that pave the way to better relations. This is why you see TONS of European parliments targetting Turkey to apologieze and recognize its massacres of the Armenians. It is needed to heal relations and to acknowledge past atrocities. 

That's it. 

[lasagna 3,392]

4 hours ago, Midnights Mayhem said:

We owe nothing to the countries that we colonised because it is in the past and we have constructive relationships with them now - for example the Commonwealth of Nations

you CANNOT be serious

in terms of the britain they still illegally occupy land in ireland and also committed genocide through a deliberate potato famine and then basically done the exact same and divided up india and pakistan and once again committed genocide through a deliberate famine.

britain owes so much to these countries along with the endless other countries they've colonized and committed atrocities in.

these are events that are not in the past as there are people still alive today that are negatively affected by what britain done.