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Dennis

I think the blockade should remain in place. I'm already seeing that the West is once again showing itself to be weak and looking for ways to back down.

Putin only speaks the language of force. And it's about time that we hold our ground for once. Let them get a taste.

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Debithius
7 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I think the blockade should remain in place. I'm already seeing that the West is once again showing itself to be weak and looking for ways to back down.

Putin only speaks the language of force. And it's about time that we hold our ground for once. Let them get a taste.

Uhm, tell that to most Europeans as we are caught in a crossfire yet again while the US has nothing much to worry about in case of a full blown war.

 

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Dennis
9 minutes ago, Debithius said:

Uhm, tell that to most Europeans as we are caught in a crossfire yet again while the US has nothing much to worry about in case of a full blown war.

 

I bet if WW2 was fought with our current generation, it would've been lost. Weakness begets aggression. When will we finally understand this? It's not about America or European. Both of us will serve in a case of conflict. What matters is how we make WW3 less likely? Years of appeasing Putin clearly didn't work. And he's become more aggressive. So why continue something that doesn't work? NATO needs to stand its ground.

The more weak you show yourself to be, the more likely Putin will want to attack you.

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Debithius
11 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I bet if WW2 was fought with our current generation, it would've been lost. Weakness begets aggression. When will we finally understand this? It's not about America or European. Both of us will serve in a case of conflict. What matters is how we make WW3 less likely? Years of appeasing Putin clearly didn't work. And he's become more aggressive. So why continue something that doesn't work? NATO needs to stand its ground.

The more weak you show yourself to be, the more likely Putin will want to attack you.

It kind of is about America and Europe. Europe is tired of taking orders from America on what to do when they would rather not go to war for Europe, while they expect the opposite out of Europe.

I understand that we have to fight back against Putin but let's not talk about "standing up for yourself" when America is pissing Russia off, giving Europe no choice but to follow with the risk of being left behind.

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Dennis
19 minutes ago, Debithius said:

It kind of is about America and Europe. Europe is tired of taking orders from America on what to do when they would rather not go to war for Europe, while they expect the opposite out of Europe.

I understand that we have to fight back against Putin but let's not talk about "standing up for yourself" when America is pissing Russia off, giving Europe no choice but to follow with the risk of being left behind.

What are you talking about? Literally all of your problems are because of your leaders. It is your leaders who decided to be heavily reliant on russian energy instead of investing in other alternatives. It is your leaders who blocked Ukraine from joining NATO when Ukraine filed an application in 2008, something that could've prevented this war.

Did you know that Trump (who is an awful person) had to sanction Nord Stream 2 to prevent Germany from becoming further reliant on Russian gas? Well such decision aged very well. So apparently even Trump had a little bit more commonsense than european leaders.

Ukraine is receiving a lot more aid from America than it's receiving from Europe.

So let's not play the blame game. European leaders were historically wrong on the issue of Russia. And this is not something you can blame America for. Years of inaction and letting Putin does what he wants, paying him tens of billions of $ a month caused this. In 2014, you guys should've immediately started exploring other sources of energy. Instead, you just made Ukraine sign a fake peace and continued to send tens of billions every month to Putin.

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Suuus
29 minutes ago, Dennis said:

What are you talking about? Literally all of your problems are because of your leaders. It is your leaders who decided to be heavily reliant on russian energy instead of investing in other alternatives. It is your leaders who blocked Ukraine from joining NATO when Ukraine filed an application in 2008, something that could've prevented this war.

Did you know that Trump (who is an awful person) had to sanction Nord Stream 2 to prevent Germany from becoming further reliant on Russian gas? Well such decision aged very well. So apparently even Trump had a little bit more commonsense than european leaders.

Ukraine is receiving a lot more aid from America than it's receiving from Europe.

So let's not play the blame game. European leaders were historically wrong on the issue of Russia. And this is not something you can blame America for. Years of inaction and letting Putin does what he wants, paying him tens of billions of $ a month caused this. In 2014, you guys should've immediately started exploring other sources of energy. Instead, you just made Ukraine sign a fake peace and continued to send tens of billions every month to Putin.

Its funny that you say dont play the blame game when you write an entire comment blaming our leaders and a while ago there was a thread about america sending money to ukraine but then revoked their decision also your talking about the country that is now dedicating their time to stripping women of their rights

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Debithius
55 minutes ago, Dennis said:

What are you talking about? Literally all of your problems are because of your leaders. It is your leaders who decided to be heavily reliant on russian energy instead of investing in other alternatives. It is your leaders who blocked Ukraine from joining NATO when Ukraine filed an application in 2008, something that could've prevented this war.

Did you know that Trump (who is an awful person) had to sanction Nord Stream 2 to prevent Germany from becoming further reliant on Russian gas? Well such decision aged very well. So apparently even Trump had a little bit more commonsense than european leaders.

Ukraine is receiving a lot more aid from America than it's receiving from Europe.

So let's not play the blame game. European leaders were historically wrong on the issue of Russia. And this is not something you can blame America for. Years of inaction and letting Putin does what he wants, paying him tens of billions of $ a month caused this. In 2014, you guys should've immediately started exploring other sources of energy. Instead, you just made Ukraine sign a fake peace and continued to send tens of billions every month to Putin.

And with leaders you mean Germany?  That's just one leader blocking Ukraine. The relationship between Russia and Germany hardly represents the collective sentiment between Russia and the rest of Europe. We are all independent countries with our owns decisions and some prepared, more than others, for a possible war. Also, you have to understand that Europe just didn't want to go to war for Ukraine in general because of how corrupt the country was/is. You also can't blame the rest of Europe for trying to make it work between them and Russia, even if it is through gas. What led up to 2014 and 2022 is unfortunate but the west, not only Europe, have a tendency to leave the East to fend for themselves and it's not like the US isnt only helping Ukraine out of self interest.

Also letting Ukraine join NATO in 2008 would have been THE red line in the sand. The war would have just come to Europe much sooner. Europe would have most definitely been locked into a certain nuclear war. 

And yeah, the US might send more in military aid while Europe is breaking their traditions and are sending tons of aid in other shapes or forms together WITH military aid. 

I got news for you, Europe didn't really care that much about Ukraine until Biden and Putin started to flex their nukes and military power against each other. And if Ukraine wasn't of strategic interest to the US your country wouldn't have given two shits either.

 

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Dennis
32 minutes ago, Debithius said:

Also letting Ukraine join NATO in 2008 would have been THE red line in the sand. The war would have just come to Europe much sooner. Europe would have most definitely been locked into a certain nuclear war. 

Explain to me how? Putin's grip on power was weaker then. As a matter of fact Ukraine had already applied in 2008 and all he did was complain and literally say that "nonetheless he respects their sovereign decision".

You can't rewrite history and make excuses for mistakes. The fact of the matter is, Ukraine could've easily joined in 2008 and it would've been just as safe as the baltics. Russia is not suicidal to attack the whole NATO.

 

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Debithius
51 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Explain to me how? Putin's grip on power was weaker then. As a matter of fact Ukraine had already applied in 2008 and all he did was complain and literally say that "nonetheless he respects their sovereign decision".

You can't rewrite history and make excuses for mistakes. The fact of the matter is, Ukraine could've easily joined in 2008 and it would've been just as safe as the baltics. Russia is not suicidal to attack the whole NATO.

 

I feel like I hardly have to explain why and how a nuclear war would be triggered.

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Dennis
6 minutes ago, Debithius said:

I feel like I hardly have to explain why and how a nuclear war would be triggered.

You don't have to. I'm far too familiar with those moot points. If Russia wanted to start a nuclear war over its ex territory joining NATO they would've done it with the Baltics and Poland. And if they wanted to do it when a border country joins NATO, they could do it because of Finland now. And yet they didn't object to it.

The reality the war in Ukraine is mainly to grab land and resources because the weak showed weakness. That's it. 

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