Barack Obama - A Promised Land

[Nino 12]

Just now, derpmonster said:

You read the stats wrong ma'am. Over 90% of those killed were civilians or mistreated.

No, I didn't. Double check your source  

1 minute ago, derpmonster said:

 please.

Me: we should improve society somewhat.

you: yet you participate in society. Hypocrite! I am very intelligent.

When a person or entity does something I detest as much as you people seem to detest America, I boycott them, not worship their byproducts. 

[derpmonster 22,412]

Just now, Nino said:

When a person or entity does something I detest as much as you people seem to detest America, I boycott them, not worship their byproducts. 

That's you. Don't project.

I don't hate America. America is a country and is filled with people. I find it hard to hate countries. I instead hate the actions of its governments, some of which remain the same regardless of the party.

[Lord Temptation 11,209]

1 minute ago, PartySick said:

ISIS was "founded" in the 90s and rose to power in 2005 though  IIrc it was after Bush had gutted Afghanistan...or something to that effect.

Idk, the last 20 years have been an eternity

True, but ISIS was only a minor, contained force until 2011. I know it’s so strange, we’re used to it now but looking back we grew up with too much information too soon. The last 10 years alone feels like a lifetime. Now we just pick everything apart. 

[derpmonster 22,412]

2 minutes ago, Nino said:

No, I didn't. Double check your source  

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_561fafe2e4b028dd7ea6c4ff

"Nearly 90 Percent Of People Killed In Recent Drone Strikes Were Not The Target"

[MJHolland 12,723]

1 minute ago, HorusRa2 said:

I still think that Obama is a war criminal. 

To the extent that Obama did good things, there were some good things but there were just as many failures as well. The 2008 financial crisis was mishandled. They gave all kinds of bailouts to the corporations who then bought back their stock, inflating the stock market and made their stockholders richer in the process while regular americans lost their homes and went bankrupt. He compromised instantly on healthcare and gave us the republican healthcare plan in the individual mandate when he had the majority he needed to get passed a public option (which was what he ran on). He made light of the water crisis in Flint that still exists today. He of course had the many foreign policy mistakes we already discussed. He also used the police in the same way Trump has at standing rock. 

I don't find your worldview to be narrow but I do feel like you are much more willing to rationalize and forgive mistakes for any positive thing. I am much more focused on what was not done well than what was done well. I think your frustration has to do with the fact that I do demand ideological purity on a core set of issues. I am not part of public policy or in government but I assure you that I am capable of compromise but there are some issues that you just don't compromise on. 

For me that is war, healthcare, education, election integrity, housing, climate and corruption. I.E. If I said I wanted to cut the military budget by 40% and you said that it was preposterous and that it needed to be cut by no more than 10%. Would I compromise to get that 10% cut? Damn right I would while also saying that it's not enough but when you have a deal, you have a deal. I will always argue for what I see is the ideal stance in discussion because it's what I believe in and regardless of whether or not I can impact public policy I will advocate for what I think is right. 

Most importantly, can I just ask what war crimes you think Obama committed? I'll remind you that war crimes are an actual defined thing in international courts of law, and civilian casualties do not consitute a war crime unless they are flagrantly intentional and pervasive. There's never been a war that didn't involve casualties. 

Spoiler

I'm asking you to be objective. I realize that you probably have a moral objection to all war period, but that doesn't make it a war crime.

Calling someone a war criminal is very serious and I'm just asking you to back that claim up. 

Below are just some points in response to your other points. 

Agreed that the '08 bailout wasn't harsh enough on the people who created the mess. But he didn't created the conditions that led to the crash, and at the same time the stimulus did save us from a full blown depression which I give him credit for. Plus we saw the longest economic expansion of US history afterwards (yes I realize the gains were mostly to the rich). 

He didn't actually cave on healthcare. He didn't have the votes to pass a public option because centrist Senator Joe Lieberman (D) blocked it. Obama pushed very very hard for a public option, and not a SINGLE Republican (in the House or Senate) voted for the Affordable Health Care Act, so I'd hardly say it was a republican bill. 

Obama actually implemented a lot of regulations against the police, including de-militarizing state police forces (banned the pentagon from transferring military equipment to civilian law enforcement offices, which Trump undid day #1). I give him a lot of credit there. 

[Nino 12]

Just now, derpmonster said:

That's you. Don't project.

I don't hate America. America is a country and is filled with people. I find it hard to hate countries. I instead hate the actions of its governments, some of which remain the same regardless of the party.

Every dollar given to Lady Gaga is a dollar taxed mainly to fund the American military. Not saying I agree with the viewpoint but certainly if I felt America was that bad I'd not directly contribute(idk if you live in the US but a lot of the people in this thread don't so they don't necessarily have to).  

1 minute ago, derpmonster said:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_561fafe2e4b028dd7ea6c4ff

"Nearly 90 Percent Of People Killed In Recent Drone Strikes Were Not The Target"

That doesn't mean 90% of the people killed were civilians.  

[MJHolland 12,723]

13 minutes ago, Nino said:

Willingly spreading misleading or wholly untrue information in an attempt to further a political agenda is the actual definition of propaganda.

Fair criticism is not the same as inventing millions of deaths to paint one of the least war-criminaly presidents in the last 30 years as a villain. A criticism of Obama's administration would be that he was going to withdraw troops permanently to later send them right back, or that he trounced on the rights of Americans at every chance he got, which are both real things that happened. The millions of imaginary dead civilians are propaganda.

Propaganda involves governments massively spreading false information for a political agenda. 

I don't think you want to accuse fellow members of being covert government agents.

I think you mean disinformation. 

[derpmonster 22,412]

1 minute ago, Nino said:

Every dollar given to Lady Gaga is a dollar taxed mainly to fund the American military. Not saying I agree with the viewpoint but certainly if I felt America was that bad I'd not directly contribute(idk if you live in the US but a lot of the people in this thread don't so they don't necessarily have to).  

That doesn't mean 90% of the people killed were civilians.  

Like my penny is what'll make a difference. Give me a break. You just want me gone from here and not enjoy the little things in life we can all find peace in because of your disagreement with my politics.

As for 90% mistargeted strikes, is that justified? It kills the entire "precision" argument that pro droners have used.

[MJHolland 12,723]

Can I please just ask the larger group what war crimes Obama committed?

Just reminding you all that war crimes are actually specific, defined statutes in international law. That's a very serious accusation and I've seen no one back it up.

Thanks! 

 

[Nino 12]

Just now, MJHolland said:

Propaganda involves governments massively spreading false information for a political agenda. 

I don't think you want to accuse fellow members of being covert government agents.

I think you mean disinformation. 

When you weaponize disinformation for political means it falls under the dictionary definition of propaganda. Propaganda has largely been a tool of politicians in recent history, but propaganda spread by common people can be just as, or even more damaging in the internet age. Look at any post on facebook from either side for example

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

[derpmonster 22,412]

5 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

He didn't actually cave on healthcare. He didn't have the votes to pass a public option because centrist Senator Joe Lieberman (D) blocked it. Obama pushed very very hard for a public option, and not a SINGLE Republican (in the House or Senate) voted for the Affordable Health Care Act, so I'd hardly say it was a republican bill. 

I appreciate you arguing in good faith. I'll add something to this. ACA was almost verbatim the same as Romney Care from Utah. Thats why it's called a republican bill by many.

As for war crimes, we can't read minds. We don't know what he intended or didn't intend for sure. What we do know is he had the information available at his disposal that 90% drones were mistargeting and decided to continue this program. 

Many people throughout history who we now agree are on the wrong side were doing what they thought was right. Many didn't intend to harm. He thought he was fighting terror and thought it made sense to allow all those collateral deaths. Some in the future may see that as barbaric especially when some people who were killed had nothing to do with any terror and were attending a local wedding.

[MJHolland 12,723]

14 minutes ago, derpmonster said:

Are uncomfortable truths flamebait now? And last I checked, discussing moderation with passive aggressive comments was WP worthy.

Nothing about it was passive aggressive.

I'm allowed to call out comments that are obviously designed to derail and enflame the discussion.

I'd love for this to be a productive conversation. If you think he's a war criminal, please do elaborate and let us know what war crimes he commited. 

[Guest]

 

31 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

For the record, I do NOT support: hawkish foreign policy, the use of force on civilians, or endless wars. 

I don't appreciate being attacked, and I think my friends on the far left would be better suited if they didn't call everyone who disagrees with them a murderous scumbag. 

When you look at actual war criminals, I think it's preposterous to put Obama in the same category. Period. That's just absurd. 

I dont think you support these things, but I think its normalized in your head, and have a different standard when it comes to none American civilians. What we are saying is not a far left progressive opinion, its the opinion of most Americans and its all proven. But I do appreaciate the way you are arguing..

[Nino 12]

3 minutes ago, derpmonster said:

Like my penny is what'll make a difference. Give me a break. You just want me gone from here and not enjoy the little things in life we can all find peace in because of your disagreement with my politics.

As for 90% mistargeted strikes, is that justified? It kills the entire "precision" argument that pro droners have used.

Everybody giving their pennies is how America affords its world-leading drone fleet so yes it makes a difference.  If a complete boycott isn't the answer for you maybe you can try swallowing the pill that America has its issues but isn't exactly evil because I sense some cognitive dissonance here if basic logic gets an lmao reaction from you.  

Excuse me for not feeling sorry for militants who die fighting for a cause they signed up to die for. I also don't think it's a war crime when American soldiers are killed in action either. 

[derpmonster 22,412]

1 minute ago, MJHolland said:

I'd love for this to be a productive conversation. If you think he's a war criminal, please do elaborate and let us know what war crimes he commited. 

The basic requirement for a civilian death to be lawful in international law is if it was not the direct object of the attack but rather collateral. 

How do you explain the bombing of an entire wedding where most if not all were civilians? If it was a mistargeted attack, that's criminal negligence in my opinion.