hoeslay 4,152 Posted September 18, 2020 Author Share Posted September 18, 2020 Like I think it's really interesting that we can have both perspectives exist - it's a sad that for some people the work might offend them (which they are entitled to feel) and for others it might empower them (also valid). It's not black and white. There's many layers. There isn't a clear right and wrong and art can often be divisive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiskoBaby 1,929 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 Im not even familiar with Armenian culture tbh. But is this it? Are these visuals considered to be Armenian or... I got a Western Native American / Mexican vibe too. So idk what culture is really being represented here or if it’s just all avant-garde stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG 7 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 Not you all trying to drag/dismiss the OP without even reading the post which is a reasonable question. Classic GGD OP: Well we'll find out when we see how the Armenian people respond to the video but I doubt it will be seen as appropriation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannesrats 26 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, Indeciso said: Case closed. No, it isn’t. The OP is asking a question before forming an opinion on it because they don’t have a full perspective on it. Learn how to have a conversation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
palma 7,756 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, DiskoBaby said: Im not even familiar with Armenian culture tbh. But is this it? Are these visuals considered to be Armenian or... I got a Western Native American / Mexican vibe too. So idk what culture is really being represented here or if it’s just all avant-garde stuff. There's a lot of Mexican and Navajo (not sure, I'm not very educated with indigenous peoples of America) visuals I'd say and they bind beautifully together with Armenian imagery. Funny thing, All three have been very prevalent in California (given that NM, Nevada and California was a place inhabited by peoples of the Navajo culture, Mexico used to won Cali and many Mexican Americans live there along with a large community of Armenian Americans) which is presumably the location of the video. EDIT: Check this beautiful exhibition by MET (https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2018/armenia) for better understanding of Armenian art if you're interested. I believe their art drew influences from Medieval Greek/Byzantine and Persian art (Armenia was in the middle of those two cultures) and those two are arguably some of the greatest civilizations in the Middle Ages. Armenia is really a very fascinating place; its both East and West, is Christian (actually they were the very first Christian nation) but in the middle of Islamic civilizations. They have a very tragic past too, which is reflected in the emotional capacity of their art. They were also extremely talented metal workers, architects and poets but lemme not spam this thread with my Armenian enthusiasm Is there some reason my LG7 isn't here? Has she died or something? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GardenPantee 51 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 27 minutes ago, hoeslay said: What do we think about the cultural references (primarily Armenian and Indian) being used to tell her story? I don't think I see it as appropriation but I'm neither Armenian nor Indian so I can't really speak on it. I know Eastern philosophies are more widespread and some people from different countries have different views on what is appropriation and what's not. It doesn't seem that she's using anything in a harmful way but I know it can be a problem when a white individual uses someone else's culture for gain or for THEIR narrative. But also Gaga is smart as f*ck and the director is Indian and it was his concept. It's genius but also scary. I know this can be a touchy subject on here and I'm not claiming it is or isn't. I'm just intrigued. Love that we have this stunning mainly BIPOC cast but I can also see the perspective of them being used as accessories. I'd love to hear a statement from the director and gain some more insight on the choice to use this kind of imagery. I did see someone Armenian-Indian on Twitter saying they felt deeply offended. I'm sure this is far from her intention but impact outweighs intention and as a POC I do have to wonder if a white artist in the US's idea for "connecting to humanity" is not necessarily the most informed -but again, she's smart as hell and I bet her and the director probably had conversations about all of this and I'd love some insight on this conversation. Let's not get messy or rude or tell people what they think is offensive or not. People are allowed to be offended or "sensitive." I would like to hear primarily from my peers in the BIPOC community and just have genuine conversation, sharing thoughts. <3 Oh GOD *eyeroll* plz go away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoeslay 4,152 Posted September 18, 2020 Author Share Posted September 18, 2020 1 minute ago, DiskoBaby said: Im not even familiar with Armenian culture tbh. But is this it? Are these visuals considered to be Armenian or... I got a Western Native American / Mexican vibe too. So idk what culture is really being represented here or if it’s just all avant-garde stuff. Yeah that's something I enjoyed too is that what makes it stray from appropriation for me is that there's SO MANY cultures. It's Armenian and Indian influence and we have Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary while this all takes place in a Catholic Missionary. I kinda feel like maybe too many points are trying to be made and it's a delicate line to walk on while discussing "humanity" and all of us being important, represented and seen. This video does provide representation and yes Gaga is the star but having Tarsem Singh come up with this concept and tell his story is a huge part of that formula and important. It's not her taking someone's stories necessarily. I almost feel like it was maybe intentional to raise the question of whether culture is being appropriated or not, though I'm not sure if that's a good or bad intention (which in itself is a mindf*ck and kinda confusing). There's so much nuance to this video and it's both my biggest love and biggest critique of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
4BLAiNE 1,064 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, hoeslay said: Like I think it's really interesting that we can have both perspectives exist - it's a sad that for some people the work might offend them (which they are entitled to feel) and for others it might empower them (also valid). It's not black and white. There's many layers. There isn't a clear right and wrong and art can often be divisive. Make no mistake, I agree with you. We SHOULD be able to have amicable discussion around sensitive topics and perspectives. However, that has gone out the window completely with the vile and toxic notion of cancel culture. Thanks to the witch hunts that take place on the daily towards artists, a thread like this can so easily contribute to a tweet, which contributes to a false ideology, which then contributes to the very nature of cancel culture - which is glorified bullying based (mostly) on ignorance, driven primarily by those who aren't even the ones affected by it, but 'on behalf of another'. This is why I find a thread like this to be inflammatory sadly OP. It is not your fault, but it is the fault of where we are at as a society currently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoeslay 4,152 Posted September 18, 2020 Author Share Posted September 18, 2020 Just now, GardenPantee said: Oh GOD *eyeroll* plz go away. No ❤️ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie Tookie 10,546 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 I’m really beginning to think this PC/SJW extremism is a subset of mental illness Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShayCristoforo 10,565 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 It’s a valid question because of the imagery but I don’t think so. The surreal content plus the filmmaker’s influence would eliminate that problem Get the pinot ready, because it's turtle time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoeslay 4,152 Posted September 18, 2020 Author Share Posted September 18, 2020 Just now, 4BLAiNE said: Make no mistake, I agree with you. We SHOULD be able to have amicable discussion around sensitive topics and perspectives. However, that has gone out the window completely with the vile and toxic notion of cancel culture. Thanks to the witch hunts that take place on the daily towards artists, a thread like this can so easily contribute to a tweet, which contributes to a false ideology, which then contributes to the very nature of cancel culture - which is glorified bullying based (mostly) on ignorance. This is why I find a thread like to be inflammatory sadly OP. It is not your fault, but it is the fault of where we are at as a society currently. Cancel culture doesn't exist, sorry. Here's a useful thread that helped me think about it critically https://twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/1288765465880231937?s=20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiskoBaby 1,929 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 If she made a video for Babylon set in ancient Babylon, would that be cultural appropriation even though Babylon no longer exists and the people there in Iraq don’t identify with ancient Babylonian culture anymore? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannesrats 26 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Cookie Tookie said: I’m really beginning to think this PC/SJW extremism is a subset of mental illness Seriously? OP is asking a question. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. Don’t respond. Don’t call someone mentally ill because they aren’t trying to offend somebody. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannesrats 26 Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, GardenPantee said: Oh GOD *eyeroll* plz go away. You’re part of the problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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