J.K. Rowling defends speaking out on trans issues

[Oriane 19,435]

16 hours ago, LaLa said:

But the thing is a man, right now, wearing jeans and a tshirt could walk into any bathroom he wants and hide in a stall and assault someone. A man looking to assault someone doesn't need to fake being trans to do it.

Do you really think there should be someone standing outside the door of every public bathroom in every restaurant, library, mall, etc checking... what exactly? Someone's genitalia? Besides being absurdly invasive, that very often doesn't match their gender. Their ID? Because governments are often very slow (or outright refuse) to update someone's paperwork.  And do you really want to have to justify yourself to some minimum wage employee every time you need to use the bathroom in public?

There isn't some huge crime wave of men putting on a dress to sneak into bathrooms. It's just an excuse transphobes use to get all up in arms. If anything, trans folks are much more likely to be assaulted, and we need to be looking out for THEIR safety. 

The difference is that right now, a "cis-looking" man for a lack of better term wouldn't be allowed in the women's bathroom. Sure, some will find ways to get around it, as in any crime. But see what happens if you allow it. And everyone is talking about fear of being assaulted but it's not even the first concern that comes to my mind regarding this subject. Most public bathrooms are just individual stalls with large open spaces under and above the walls separating each stall, for safety reasons obviously. It's fine when it's all people identifying with the same gender, but imagine making it a mixed-gender bathroom.

Anyway I would love to hear how many (non-fully transitioned) trans men are willing to use the men's bathroom, in comparison to how many (non-fully transitioned) trans women are willing to use the women's bathroom.

[Hurem 17,800]

10 hours ago, NewUsername said:

People wanting to be treated with respect are vocal.

And "too extreme with their ideas" probably comes of a confirmation bias of yours.

It doesn’t make sense for such a small minority to expect the whole world to change the way of using the pronouns because of them. 

[NewUsername 10,785]

1 hour ago, Hurem said:

It doesn’t make sense for such a small minority to expect the whole world to change the way of using the pronouns because of them. 

Predicted you were going to say this and it's such a nonsense.
How difficult is it to just use another pronoun if somebody asks you, like why you gotta be like "NO!"  

Trans or nb people will mostly not get mad if you for example have some difficulties remembering or misgendered them at the first try or made a mistake, but if someone asks you "hey, could you rather please say [...]" and if after that you still go out of your way to be stubborn and misgender them, sorry, but then you're just an asshole.

And about 'changing everything'. That's not happening nor always wanted.
Just some small changes.
Like I've seen negative reactions when the train company in my country changed "ladies and gentlemen" to "dear passengers" to be more inclusive. Like who tf cares?  It doesn't affect you badly in any way, but by doing something like this it has a huge positive impact on trans and nb people.

[Hurem 17,800]

13 minutes ago, NewUsername said:

Predicted you were going to say this and it's such a nonsense.
How difficult is it to just use another pronoun if somebody asks you, like why you gotta be like "NO!"  

Trans or nb people will mostly not get mad if you for example have some difficulties remembering or misgendered them at the first try or made a mistake, but if someone asks you "hey, could you rather please say [...]" and if after that you still go out of your way to be stubborn and misgender them, sorry, but then you're just an asshole.

I’ve never misgendered anyone on purpose. And I don’t have problems with he/she pronouns, only when people wanna use “they”. It just doesn’t feel natural, it never crossed my mind to use “they” for an individual. 

You can take Sam Smith for example, as much as I try to be respectful, sometimes the “he” pronoun slips and people always quote me with passive aggresive comments about misgendering Sam.  

[Parsakaali 268]

I do agree with some of her concerns, especially the one with the massive rise in those identifying as ftm. I think its problematic how some people think that liking stuff that is stereotypically in the 50's considerered to be more for the other gender, means they are trans. There are feminine men, masculine women, and transpeople, but the key is to make sure they know which they are before going to hormones or surgery, which are permanent alterations.

(Please educate me with alternative thoughts if needed, but that is the conclusion I have reached)

[Deagan 608]

After reading it I just see a famous vocal woman who has actually done a lot of research on the matter (much more than I have), struggling to understand what trans is, how it works, how it affects society, how it is related to social media, and honestly, she represents like 99% of society in her ways of thinking. Some of it is very cringy though... let researchers do research and let fiction writers be writers.

"The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge."

"I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria."

If those things are true, and I'm guessing science is still very iffy about "gender dysphoria" (is it psychologically still deemed a mental issue?) regarding causes and consequences etc... it is a good thing that she's questioning these things and creating a public debate (too bad she turned off comments). Gives researchers something to investigate. Of those 10-40% that do not grow out of it, can those people prove that people are actually born a certain way? I have a problem with how she uses it to propagate that it's a "temporal mental disability", though. What if it is caused by eating too much dairy as a child (idk)? 

It is not the same as sexuality, the color of your skin, or being discriminated against for being a gender. Can you imagine writing something like 60-90% of the gay men go back to being sexually attracted to women?

The trans community feels attacked but people like J.K. Rowling are just trying to understand it.

It's too easy to just dismiss her thoughts with acronyms like TERF...
 

[NewUsername 10,785]

1 hour ago, Hurem said:

I’ve never misgendered anyone on purpose. And I don’t have problems with he/she pronouns, only when people wanna use “they”. It just doesn’t feel natural, it never crossed my mind to use “they” for an individual. 

You can take Sam Smith for example, as much as I try to be respectful, sometimes the “he” pronoun slips and people always quote me with passive aggresive comments about misgendering Sam.  

It doesn't have to feel natural to you nor does it have to cross your mind. If someone's name is William, but that person says "hey, I actually prefer to be called Bill", you don't answer "sorry, but that doesn't feel natural to me", lol. It's the same in this situation.

Also, "they" has always been used already in English as a neutral term, when you're talking about someone without knowing exactly who they are, out of the context of the whole gender identity context. So, it's no stretch to ALSO use it for people who prefer to be called this way, even when you see who you have in front of you.

If you just let "he" slip when talking about Sam Smith, there's no harm and people shouldn't attack you if they don't know whether you did it intentionally. I agree with you on that. But if, when confronted and reminded about it again, you still intentionally use "he", then you're just being disrespectful. So I hope you at least aren't doing this.

[NewUsername 10,785]

45 minutes ago, Deagan said:

After reading it I just see a famous vocal woman who has actually done a lot of research on the matter (much more than I have), struggling to understand what trans is, how it works, how it affects society, how it is related to social media, and honestly, she represents like 99% of society in her ways of thinking. Some of it is very cringy though... let researchers do research and let fiction writers be writers.

"The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge."

"I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria."

If those things are true, and I'm guessing science is still very iffy about "gender dysphoria" (is it psychologically still deemed a mental issue?) regarding causes and consequences etc... it is a good thing that she's questioning these things and creating a public debate (too bad she turned off comments). Gives researchers something to investigate. Of those 10-40% that do not grow out of it, can those people prove that people are actually born a certain way? I have a problem with how she uses it to propagate that it's a "temporal mental disability", though. What if it is caused by eating too much dairy as a child (idk)? 

It is not the same as sexuality, the color of your skin, or being discriminated against for being a gender. Can you imagine writing something like 60-90% of the gay men go back to being sexually attracted to women?

The trans community feels attacked but people like J.K. Rowling are just trying to understand it.

It's too easy to just dismiss her thoughts with acronyms like TERF...
 

I feel like she's more pretending to have done "a lot of research" or at least is cherry picking them, as stated by several users before. Why does she invoke sources, but then doesn't link them? That just looks fishy. She can try to wrap her head around it and try to understand such an indeed complex given, but she's not "just trying to understand it". Her tone is so off in the whole essay and there's things she goes the wrong way about.

[Hurem 17,800]

1 hour ago, NewUsername said:

It doesn't have to feel natural to you nor does it have to cross your mind. If someone's name is William, but that person says "hey, I actually prefer to be called Bill", you don't answer "sorry, but that doesn't feel natural to me", lol. It's the same in this situation.

Also, "they" has always been used already in English as a neutral term, when you're talking about someone without knowing exactly who they are, out of the context of the whole gender identity context. So, it's no stretch to ALSO use it for people who prefer to be called this way, even when you see who you have in front of you.

Except there are thousand more names other than William and Bill, but I haven’t used any pronoun other than he or she my entire life.

And yeah, exactly, they is used in english when you don’t know who the person is. When you see someone, let’s take Sam Smith as an example yet again, I’m pretty sure everyone assumes it’s a he. It’s just the way our brain functions.

[GagaSine 7,464]

3 hours ago, Hurem said:

I’ve never misgendered anyone on purpose. And I don’t have problems with he/she pronouns, only when people wanna use “they”. It just doesn’t feel natural, it never crossed my mind to use “they” for an individual. 

You can take Sam Smith for example, as much as I try to be respectful, sometimes the “he” pronoun slips and people always quote me with passive aggresive comments about misgendering Sam.  

 

[GagaSine 7,464]

1 hour ago, NewUsername said:

I feel like she's more pretending to have done "a lot of research" or at least is cherry picking them, as stated by several users before. Why does she invoke sources, but then doesn't link them? That just looks fishy. She can try to wrap her head around it and try to understand such an indeed complex given, but she's not "just trying to understand it". Her tone is so off in the whole essay and there's things she goes the wrong way about.

She‘s misrepresenting the research and also using studies that have been proven faulty, more info in this thread:

 

[NewUsername 10,785]

23 minutes ago, GagaSine said:

She‘s misrepresenting the research and also using studies that have been proven faulty, more info in this thread:

 

Yeah, I know, I've read his thread some hours ago

43 minutes ago, Hurem said:

Except there are thousand more names other than William and Bill, but I haven’t used any pronoun other than he or she my entire life.

And yeah, exactly, they is used in english when you don’t know who the person is. When you see someone, let’s take Sam Smith as an example yet again, I’m pretty sure everyone assumes it’s a he. It’s just the way our brain functions.

What?  The first part of your first sentence makes sense by itself, but not in relation to what I've said. 
Plus you saying "but I haven't..." is no argument at all? It's like saying "I don't need to show respect in that way because I have never shown it before in that way". Like HUH?

Why are you talking about "assuming" again? I've said before that there's nothing inherently wrong with assuming, but once confronted with how the person really identifies, that you need to use the right pronouns. 

[Hurem 17,800]

1 hour ago, NewUsername said:

What?  The first part of your first sentence makes sense by itself, but not in relation to what I've said. 
Plus you saying "but I haven't..." is no argument at all? It's like saying "I don't need to show respect in that way because I have never shown it before in that way". Like HUH?

Why are you talking about "assuming" again? I've said before that there's nothing inherently wrong with assuming, but once confronted with how the person really identifies, that you need to use the right pronouns. 

You compared someone asking you to call them by different names, to someone asking to change the pronouns. We are used to many names, 99.9% of the world isn’t used to any other pronoun other than he or she.

I simply don’t see why anyone would want to be reffered to as “they” other than the fact they wanna special, and it comes off as attention seeking.

[swooning 442]

41 minutes ago, Hurem said:

You compared someone asking you to call them by different names, to someone asking to change the pronouns. We are used to many names, 99.9% of the world isn’t used to any other pronoun other than he or she.

I simply don’t see why anyone would want to be reffered to as “they” other than the fact they wanna special, and it comes off as attention seeking.

Jesus f*kin Christ...

[NewUsername 10,785]

25 minutes ago, swooning said:

Jesus f*kin Christ...

exactly. I tried to reason with Hurem, but after a very rocky start and then actually having somewhat of a discussion, all reason seems to be gone again, so I stop. It doesn't make sense no more, given the user isn't making sense no more.
They also contradict themselves: "we're used to SOO MANY names, whew, do we know some names" but still, using 1 more pronoun is too difficult y'all