Hybrid AT 78 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 20 minutes ago, Fish said: lol imagine calling Jo Biden proggressive... Americans (I just assumed you are) are really disconnected with the political and social reality. also, to call trump's administration fascist will just further strengthen his supporters and make democrats look like they are ready to say anything to drag trump. Where did I call Biden progressive? At best, he's center left and more right to Bernie, Pete, Warren etc. That still doesn't change the fact that he's trying to improve things and running on a platform that's arguably more progressive than Obama 2008. And Trump is a literal fascist so I'm not sure what's the point you're trying to make. "I was protected by the monks of Azarath, I was raised by my friends. They are my family, this is my home and you are not welcome here." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish 6,259 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 12 minutes ago, HybridAT said: Where did I call Biden progressive? At best, he's center left and more right to Bernie, Pete, Warren etc. That still doesn't change the fact that he's trying to improve things and running on a platform that's arguably more progressive than Obama 2008. And Trump is a literal fascist so I'm not sure what's the point you're trying to make. Biden is an hypocrite and professional politician, who numerously voted against progressive agendas throughout the many years of his career. I wouldn't trust him to carry out any progressive agenda. On trump being a fascist, of course he bears some similarities, but nuances are everything in this day and age of polarization and verbal, internet-fueled, hyperbolic discourse. On the topic, this is a good read: https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/09/opinions/bergen-is-trump-fascist/index.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShayCristoforo 10,607 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 If you're really a Bernie supporter, you would never vote for Trump. Get the pinot ready, because it's turtle time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusRa2 5,005 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 hours ago, HybridAT said: Who said "progressive" means "democrat"? And let's not pretend that this wasn't the most progressive primary ever. Like, you can try gatekeeping progressivism and defining it in your own terms but objectively even a public option is the biggest reform to the healthcare system in over 50 years. Progressivism is about social reform. It's about equitable and sustainable development. That's why it has the word "progress" in it and that's why these 15% supporters in question need to get their priorities straight because voting for Trump at this point doesn't bring about any progress. It scales it back. Why does this even need to be explained? Ok but you’re the one being the gatekeeper and telling people that progressivism is something it never was. If you go back to Teddy Roosevelt and FDR where the political term progressivism was coined and the time period for which it represents in your high school history book, you would know that one of the major platform ideas would be universal healthcare. The first actual bil for universal HEALTHCARE wasn’t until the 1970’s where three bills were put forth. Dont tell me what progressive means because you’re very clearly wrong. People like you ignore the origins and history and create your dictionary.com version of what words mean. Fact is a public option is not going to lower costs and would be a short term solution that would ultimately fail. Costs would not go down nearly enough and the risk pool that would contribute to the public option wouldn’t keep the public option solvent. Also, I see that you never confront the reality that Pete’s bill would fine people for not having insurance at all equal to the number of months uninsured in public option premium dollars. You tell me how that is “progress.” I really wish you would take your affection for Pete and take the valid criticism. There are many criticisms of Bernie, but most of you never make the right criticisms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid AT 78 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 24 minutes ago, Fish said: Biden is an hypocrite and professional politician, who numerously voted against progressive agendas throughout the many years of his career. I wouldn't trust him to carry out any progressive agenda. On trump being a fascist, of course he bears some similarities, but nuances are everything in this day and age of polarization and verbal, internet-fueled, hyperbolic discourse. On the topic, this is a good read: https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/09/opinions/bergen-is-trump-fascist/index.html Google the definition of "stochastic terrorism". He doesn't have to literally go out and kill people. He's the President of the world's most powerful country and his words and actions have consequences. When he calls immigrants "infestations", calls people of color "rodents" and tells them to "go back to where they came from", that's his way to enable fascism. Here's a good read on that subject by an actual fascism expert. https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-expert-trump-has-laid-the-groundwork-for-full-on-authoritarian-rule/ It's funny that you find more nuance in Trump's positions to prove he's not a fascist than to find nuance in Biden's case to advance progressive goals. A whole new low for Bernie supporters of "praising fascists to own the libs" "I was protected by the monks of Azarath, I was raised by my friends. They are my family, this is my home and you are not welcome here." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish 6,259 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Just now, HybridAT said: Google the definition of "stochastic terrorism". He doesn't have to literally go out and kill people. He's the President of the world's most powerful country and his words and actions have consequences. When he calls immigrants "infestations", calls people of color "rodents" and tells them to "go back to where they came from", that's his way to enable fascism. Here's a good read on that subject by an actual fascism expert. https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-expert-trump-has-laid-the-groundwork-for-full-on-authoritarian-rule/ It's funny that you find more nuance in Trump's positions to prove he's not a fascist than to find nuance in Biden's case to advance progressive goals. A whole new low for Bernie supporters of "praising fascists to own the libs" I guess keep calling trump a fascist when its more nuanced than that (and all of his supporters too I suppose - half of America) and see the political climate downgrade even more, and see the reelection of trump happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid AT 78 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 6 minutes ago, HorusRa2 said: Ok but you’re the one being the gatekeeper and telling people that progressivism is something it never was. If you go back to Teddy Roosevelt and FDR where the political term progressivism was coined and the time period for which it represents in your high school history book, you would know that one of the major platform ideas would be universal healthcare. The first actual bil for universal HEALTHCARE wasn’t until the 1970’s where three bills were put forth. Dont tell me what progressive means because you’re very clearly wrong. People like you ignore the origins and history and create your dictionary.com version of what words mean. Fact is a public option is not going to lower costs and would be a short term solution that would ultimately fail. Costs would not go down nearly enough and the risk pool that would contribute to the public option wouldn’t keep the public option solvent. Also, I see that you never confront the reality that Pete’s bill would fine people for not having insurance at all equal to the number of months uninsured in public option premium dollars. You tell me how that is “progress.” I really wish you would take your affection for Pete and take the valid criticism. There are many criticisms of Bernie, but most of you never make the right criticisms. If you take your Bernie blinders off for a hot minute, you'd probably see things more objectively. But then you think Biden is just as bad as Trump. You also clearly never read Pete's plans ever, you're just regurgitating those same old, tired [insert popular left think-tank here a la Intercept, Current Affairs, TYT etc] points. You're clearly out of touch with reality so there's no point of a conversation here because that's just waste of both of our times. Stay safe and I wish you well. "I was protected by the monks of Azarath, I was raised by my friends. They are my family, this is my home and you are not welcome here." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepsami 20,970 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Then that 15% have no idea why they were voting for Bernie in the 1st place Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
not Chromatica 5,393 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imnotyourbabe10 6,120 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Just really wish the US had ranked voting...maybe that would help? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmonzter 2,864 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Irrespective of the fact that I enjoy these rampant display of whining centrist who feel that the Bernie bros will abandon them. People are going to vote their conscience No amount of moral levity or virtue signalling is going to change that. A lot of supporters feel disenfranchised by the DNC and Biden hasn't changed any of his policies to assuage the progressives So you can't presume that they'll be politically expedient enough to vote for a creepy blithering grandpa. Sing C'est la vie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid AT 78 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Lilmonzter said: Irrespective of the fact that I enjoy these rampant display of whining centrist who feel that the Bernie bros will abandon them. People are going to vote their conscience No amount of moral levity or virtue signalling is going to change that. A lot of supporters feel disenfranchised by the DNC and Biden hasn't changed any of his policies to assuage the progressives So you can't presume that they'll be politically expedient enough to vote for a creepy blithering grandpa. Nobody is whining about anything lol. It's just people laughing at the sheer stupidity of the fact that some supporters of a left-wing hero of the progressive movement would consider voting for a right-wing white nationalist figure just out of spite. As for "Biden hasn't changed any of his policies to assuage progressives", not sure if you missed these events or are being purposefully disingenuous. You can say they're "not enough" for you, but then you don't speak for all progressives either. Facts matter. "I was protected by the monks of Azarath, I was raised by my friends. They are my family, this is my home and you are not welcome here." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petie Estie 5,707 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 12 hours ago, Franz Ferdinand said: It's 2016 all over again... Establishment candidates, who are typically center-right, have never been able to beat hardcore republicans. It has never happen and yet every time this situation arises, people vote for the moderate guy "because they're more electable". everybody says this but like...hillary and joe would've been/would be the most liberal presidents in history. Winning is not all about where you fall on the political spectrum...at all. Call your therapist...it's Petie Estie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmonzter 2,864 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, HybridAT said: Nobody is whining about anything lol. It's just people laughing at the sheer stupidity of the fact that some supporters of a left-wing hero of the progressive movement would consider voting for a right-wing white nationalist figure just out of spite. As for "Biden hasn't changed any of his policies to assuage progressives", not sure if you missed these events or are being purposefully disingenuous. You can say they're "not enough" for you, but then you don't speak for all progressives either. Facts matter. It does sound a lot like whining but I digress At this point I don't care who wins as long as it isn't trump But having said that Joe Biden is gaffing way too much, he can't finish sentences, he is not sharp. And I don't think there is an excited base for him, even Pete had better sticky support. Sing C'est la vie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphine Prince 109,656 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 9 hours ago, Whispering said: That’s not correct. According to Politico, Obama also won 84 percent of those Democrats who backed New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton in the hard-fought presidential primaries. Also, McCain =/= Trump. For a “progressive” to vote for Trump, is a giant leap. The moderate is winning because there are more voters that showed up to vote for him. The progressives didn’t come out to vote for the progressive candidate. He didn’t convince enough people to get excited enough to come out to vote. We had this discussion before, and you laughed it off, BUT 12% went Sanders to Trump. 12% is less than 25% “The 12% Bernie-to-Trump figure (and 24% Clinton-to-McCain figure)[see note below] comes from Brian Schaffner of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst who based it on extrapolations from the data in the Cooperative Congressional Election Study.“ The results vary, but 16% seems to be the lowest number you can get of Clinton to McCain people. And yes, McCain wasn’t as awful as Trump. Which is why less Sanders supporters switched to Trump than Clinton supporters switched to McCain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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