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Bernie leads close California race!

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5 hours ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

I'm sorry, but this is absolute nonsense.

If people are going to move candidates, people who like Warren would flock to Bernie because they are the most similar ideologically in terms of their vision for America and what policies they want implemented under their administrations. It's not that complicated. If your biggest thing is Climate Change, the only other candidate who has an aggressive plan to combat Climate Change is Bernie Sanders. If you want a significant wealth tax to pay for universal programs, the only other person proposing that is Bernie Sanders. If you want Universal Childcare, Universal Pre-K, paid parental leave, etc... In many if not all of these examples, of which there are MANY other *I got a plan for that moments* from Warren, Bernie Sanders just happens to be the only other candidate that supports these ideas beyond saying "They are good ideas" - that's not something I point out because I like him, its just the truth. Joe Biden just simply *does not* support things like the Green New Deal, or making Public College Tuition Free :shrug: So, if those are things you as a voter care about, then yes, Bernie Sanders is simply your *best* second option.

There's nothing personal about any of what I've just said, its not because I like him or whatever, You're entirely projecting this reasoning here :rip: I'm just being reasonable. If I want a wealth tax in America and that's why I support Warren, it would make no sense for me to go to support Buttigieg or Biden or Klobuchar instead of Bernie.

As a former Warren supporter and someone who has supported her much longer than I have supported Bernie Sanders, going back to 09,  I am disgusted and disappointed to see that she has resorted to the exact petty below the belt politics that puts personal gain over the actual things people want - the things that she claims to be running to defeat in the first place. It has made me re-think all of the times people told me that I was being too soft on her as she wavered in support for M4A, when she endorsed Hillary in 2016, etc. I have donated to her campaign several times, and I got a refund yesterday because I was so disappointed in how she and her campaign have behaved. I stopped my email subscription to her campaign, I stopped liking her pages on social media, I can't even look at my Billionaire's Tears mug gleefully anymore.

But that's just my experience. Why should either yours or mine be seen as definitive, the fact that we have different experiences is all the evidence we need to know that both situations are possible and valid.

I can attest to this

 

Seeing as Warren is like a sinking ship Bernie who was my second chance now gets my promo

 

I don't agree with how far left he goes on certain things... But since Presidents can never implement everything they invision (they are not dictators) and since he might be forced to compromise on some stuff if he wants to pass certain things I don't think the US would ever go as far left as he'd like under his Presidency

 

Presidencies tend to be more of a direction. Whatever a President invisions, the country tends to go that direction but usually not fully all the way

 

I consider direction in candidates too not just their full vision or ideals cuz it never goes all the way... that's why even tho Biden might be a smidge closer to what I think is ideal (still a bit to the right tho of what I think is ideal)... He wouldn't invoke much change cuz since he's not significantly left of the status quo, the influence which is less than full idea and results means Joe Biden wouldn't make America all that much more progressive than it is now (maybe marginally) so he wouldn't really be any good in my books

 

I think Bernie could actually be a great balance and direction for where I think America should ideally go :oprah:

 

Time will tell if he wins :sweat:

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SEANGT

hoorayyyyy, i don't really care about warren vs bernie because they can reconcile their delagates at the convention to block biden. I'm voting for warren in michigan unless she ends up totally failing before we vote in march. 

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PoshLife
6 hours ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

 

rakich-secondchoice-1205-1.png?w=575

As of late November (the most recent I can find), 30% of Warren's supporters said their second choice was Sanders, while 19% said it was Biden and 15% said it was Buttigieg. That doesn't sound like "flocking" to me, and I don't think the recent developments between Warren and Sanders added to the goodwill.

You can write as much as you want on your policy positions and why you think everyone should agree that Warren and Sanders are essentially the same (while Sanders is also somehow inherently better), but I'll take the actual statistics.

Edit to add: Also your argument is predicated on the notion that people are voting for the candidate they agree with the most... just today FiveThirtyEight put out polling showing that almost two-thirds of voters put "ability to beat Trump" as more important than "shared stance on issues" when deciding which Dem to support. And electability continues to be one of Biden's strongest arguments especially given the fact that he does poll better against Trump than any other candidate. So again, you can write all day about how Warren and Sanders share the same values, but not every voter is coming at this from the same place you are.

Edited by PoshLife
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SEANGT
6 hours ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

I'm sorry, but this is absolute nonsense.

If people are going to move candidates, people who like Warren would flock to Bernie because they are the most similar ideologically in terms of their vision for America and what policies they want implemented under their administrations. It's not that complicated. If your biggest thing is Climate Change, the only other candidate who has an aggressive plan to combat Climate Change is Bernie Sanders. If you want a significant wealth tax to pay for universal programs, the only other person proposing that is Bernie Sanders. If you want Universal Childcare, Universal Pre-K, paid parental leave, etc... In many if not all of these examples, of which there are MANY other *I got a plan for that moments* from Warren, Bernie Sanders just happens to be the only other candidate that supports these ideas beyond saying "They are good ideas" - that's not something I point out because I like him, its just the truth. Joe Biden just simply *does not* support things like the Green New Deal, or making Public College Tuition Free :shrug: So, if those are things you as a voter care about, then yes, Bernie Sanders is simply your *best* second option.

There's nothing personal about any of what I've just said, its not because I like him or whatever, You're entirely projecting this reasoning here :rip: I'm just being reasonable. If I want a wealth tax in America and that's why I support Warren, it would make no sense for me to go to support Buttigieg or Biden or Klobuchar instead of Bernie.

As a former Warren supporter and someone who has supported her much longer than I have supported Bernie Sanders, going back to 09,  I am disgusted and disappointed to see that she has resorted to the exact petty below the belt politics that puts personal gain over the actual things people want - the things that she claims to be running to defeat in the first place. It has made me re-think all of the times people told me that I was being too soft on her as she wavered in support for M4A, when she endorsed Hillary in 2016, etc. I have donated to her campaign several times, and I got a refund yesterday because I was so disappointed in how she and her campaign have behaved. I stopped my email subscription to her campaign, I stopped liking her pages on social media, I can't even look at my Billionaire's Tears mug gleefully anymore.

But that's just my experience. Why should either yours or mine be seen as definitive, the fact that we have different experiences is all the evidence we need to know that both situations are possible and valid.

I truly don't understand why anyone would feel how you do towards Warren?? She didn't do anything wrong. People reported that Bernie said something that many people believe and that isn't that controversial, and Warren confirmed it. It's not a big deal or at least it shouldn't be. Her official statement has basically 2 paragraphs of praise for bernie around the confirmation of him disagreeing that a woman could win. 

The other thing with the bernie campaign having a script that's anti-warren...I don't see the problem...you should have a way to persuade people to your candidate. Warren said she was disappointed and she doesn't think that's a good way to unify the democrats. It's not news that bernie is divisive within the democratic party. 

Everyone on all sides is making this **** more of a big deal than it should be. It only helps Biden. 

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ItsTommyBitch
4 hours ago, PoshLife said:

rakich-secondchoice-1205-1.png?w=575

As of late November (the most recent I can find), 30% of Warren's supporters said their second choice was Sanders, while 19% said it was Biden and 15% said it was Buttigieg. That doesn't sound like "flocking" to me, and I don't think the recent developments between Warren and Sanders added to the goodwill.

You can write as much as you want on your policy positions and why you think everyone should agree that Warren and Sanders are essentially the same (while Sanders is also somehow inherently better), but I'll take the actual statistics.

Edit to add: Also your argument is predicated on the notion that people are voting for the candidate they agree with the most... just today FiveThirtyEight put out polling showing that almost two-thirds of voters put "ability to beat Trump" as more important than "shared stance on issues" when deciding which Dem to support. And electability continues to be one of Biden's strongest arguments especially given the fact that he does poll better against Trump than any other candidate. So again, you can write all day about how Warren and Sanders share the same values, but not every voter is coming at this from the same place you are.

This is not a zero sum game sis :rip: I did not say 100% of Warren and Sanders supporters only care about policy.

But SOME do, therefore if their personal situation is something like "I want a wealth tax in America" then Bernie is a logical second choice.

If it is just "I want to beat Trump no matter who the nominee is" then Biden would probably be their choice.

These things... Co-exist. I never claimed every voter is like me or anything of the sort :emma:

 

(Though for the record, I also very much want to beat Trump, and despite the teachings of CNN and MSNBC, I partly support Bernie because I genuinely believe Trump would beat Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren)

私自身もこの世の中も誰もかれもが, どんなに華やかな人生でも, どんなに悲惨な人生でも, いつかは変貌し, 破壊され、消滅してしまう. すべてがもともとこの世に存在しない一瞬の幻想なのだから

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ItsTommyBitch
4 hours ago, SEANGT said:

I truly don't understand why anyone would feel how you do towards Warren?? She didn't Bdo anything wrong. People reported that Bernie said something that many people believe and that isn't that controversial, and Warren confirmed it. It's not a big deal or at least it shouldn't be. Her official statement has basically 2 paragraphs of praise for bernie around the confirmation of him disagreeing that a woman could win. 

The other thing with the bernie campaign having a script that's anti-warren...I don't see the problem...you should have a way to persuade people to your candidate. Warren said she was disappointed and she doesn't think that's a good way to unify the democrats. It's not news that bernie is divisive within the democratic party. 

Everyone on all sides is making this **** more of a big deal than it should be. It only helps Biden. 

Because her team first leaked a news story from 4 anonymous sources just saying that a woman could not win at all.

Then they backed it down to "a woman can't win in 2020"

And he responded with basically "I said Trump would use their gender against them"

It's an abstraction that is meant to make people jump to large conclusions - Bernie is a sexist, anti-woman, doesn't believe a woman can be president at all, etc. is how people are reacting, viscerally. The conclusion "Trump would use sexism in his favor against Warren" is very fair, and something many people realize. But "A woman cannot be President in America, or cannot beat Trump" is a much heavier statement.

Warren's statement leaves this assumption in the air, somewhat on purpose, because she's refusing to comment further on it. This helps weaponize #MeToo, #BelieveWomen, etc. and other identity based social movements to attack someone who is actually an extreme ally of women.. in order to help Warren gain points and favor. It brings up the woke liberal feminists who hated Bernie in 2016 just because he was running to defeat Hillary Clinton, a woman, and it reawakens anger from people who feel like Bernie Sanders is the reason we don't have a woman president right now.

I think it will backfire on her, but that's what she did. She didn't do nothing, but you are right it all helps Biden.

私自身もこの世の中も誰もかれもが, どんなに華やかな人生でも, どんなに悲惨な人生でも, いつかは変貌し, 破壊され、消滅してしまう. すべてがもともとこの世に存在しない一瞬の幻想なのだから

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