Baby Kept On Vegan Diet Died. Vegan parents Arrested.

[Antoni 5,332]

Some people in this thread are crying louder than that starving child. 

[AVeryGagaHolyDick 31,894]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 10:25 PM, goods said:

You can't sustain yourself on vegan diet eating only fruit. PeriodT. People need to realise this. This child was probably deprived of rice, potato, bread or any other diet staple.  I supplement omega 3 from algae oil pills and get b12 with a spray and vitamind D3 through drops. 

As for people here claiming Vegan diet is sIcK and KiLLinG, I wish you a lovely day in your Bubble.

 

You know bread is full of insects right? 

[Sarah H 4,375]

The parents were neglectful and didn't understand what the baby needed. Each to their own but I don't think vegan diets are great for babies and kids anyway. 

[Didymus 34,380]

On 11/26/2019 at 3:49 PM, StrawberryBlond said:

Veganism doesn't always attract people with the healthiest diet mindsets because anyone who wants to eat such a restrictive diet likely has some level of issues with food. You will lose weight, at least initially and seem to be healthier, but so many end up internally unhealthy because they don't realise the danger they're doing to their bodies. And realise that not everyone's body is the same and not everyone can thrive on the same diet. I was advised to cut out dairy products because this is known to clear up eczema. I tried that and my eczema stayed the same/got worse on and off. Ironically, when I went back onto dairy, it cleared right up. Point is, acting like one diet is superior isn't the way. Everyone's different and you've got respect everyone's individual needs, especially that of a developing child.

This is not accurate. Veganism is not a restrictive diet (I've never eaten a greater diversity of foods like I do now that I've gone vegan), it doesn't make you lose weight if you eat normally (I actually gained weight in the beginning and there's TONS of overweight vegans around) and your "vegan ideology" argumentation is incomplete.

What I mean with that latter point is that you're singling out veganism for being an ideology but you're not discussing how the "regular" diet shoved through people's throats is just as much an ideology, and a very problematic one at that since it involves massive animal cruelty and irreparable damage to our environment.

I agree about many other things about your post though. These people didn't do their research and they should've consulted with a specialized doctor. Under those circumstances there's no reason why a regular child couldn't thrive on a vegan diet. Almost all medical experts agree on this subject. So the fault is theirs and theirs alone. No need to direct the conversation towards veganism as a whole imo.

[StrawberryBlond 15,555]

1 hour ago, Didymus said:

This is not accurate. Veganism is not a restrictive diet (I've never eaten a greater diversity of foods like I do now that I've gone vegan), it doesn't make you lose weight if you eat normally (I actually gained weight in the beginning and there's TONS of overweight vegans around) and your "vegan ideology" argumentation is incomplete.

What I mean with that latter point is that you're singling out veganism for being an ideology but you're not discussing how the "regular" diet shoved through people's throats is just as much an ideology, and a very problematic one at that since it involves massive animal cruelty and irreparable damage to our environment.

I agree about many other things about your post though. These people didn't do their research and they should've consulted with a specialized doctor. Under those circumstances there's no reason why a regular child couldn't thrive on a vegan diet. Almost all medical experts agree on this subject. So the fault is theirs and theirs alone. No need to direct the conversation towards veganism as a whole imo.

How is it not restrictive? Meat and dairy are two massive food groups. This is the reason most people say they can't go vegan, it involves cutting out too much nutritious, enjoyable food and limits your choices at restaurants. Raw food vegans literally can't eat anything at these places as there's no mainstream restaurant that will serve you 2 papayas and 3 mangoes as a meal. I've heard some vegans say that in order to get around the problem of not being able to eat anything at functions, they eat at home before or after. That's not living a normal life, only eating on your own at home because no one else eats what you do. It's an isolating diet at its worst. I'm aware that not all vegans lose a lot of weight, although cutting out dairy will definitely make you lose something, I lost weight by simply cutting down on dairy while still eating meat. It depends what form of veganism you're following, obviously an "Oreo vegan" won't really lose anything. I've certainly heard of people bloating on a raw fruit diet.

Of course meat/dairy diets can be very harmful but only if they're not done right. All my family eat meat and dairy and the worst thing that's resulted from that is high blood pressure, but then, that's just a general ailment among the older generation anyway. My uncle's eaten meat and dairy all his life and his cholesterol is outstandingly low, his blood pressure is in the perfect range and he's never suffered constipation. Basically, everything vegans say meat and dairy will cause, he doesn't get it. My mum, who also eats meat and dairy, finds that, as much as she enjoys fruit and veg, it can have negative effects on her and she has to avoid certain high fibre packed foods and said that the average vegan diet would mean she'd never be able to leave the bathroom. We're a family who have never eaten meat and dairy in abundance, it's about balance. A balanced diet composing of all the food groups will keep you fighting fit. Every person I've seen live to an incredibly old age has had a varied diet of all food groups. We wouldn't have evolved to the humans we are today if we hadn't had a varied diet. Our ancestors didn't die from only eating meat in the winter for centuries, they thrived and birthed the next generation. Humans are adaptable and while we can certainly process fruit and veg and it can nourish us, we are omnivores, not herbivores. And as for animal cruelty - the way most animals are killed for human consumption is far more humane than how they're killed in the wild. They'd probably live no longer in the wild either. If they're allowed to run free and breed however they choose, we'll be over-run and they're get in our way as we're not in a replacement cycle. And damage to the environment is from a variety of factors and if the whole world went vegan, very little would change. I don't know how vegans are going to get almonds, cashews, chia seeds, exotic fruit, Thrive delivery service, etc. without damaging the environment in the form of plane, boat and gas emissions. That, of course, is a reality they don't want to talk about.

But an adult's diet shouldn't be forced on a developing child, especially all that high-sugar fruit when their teeth are developing. And making them take supplements is a big undertaking. If anything, give that child the choice to become vegan when they're older, then it'll mean something. If you want to become vegan of your own choosing, it's meaningful. Having it forced on you and continuing it because it's all you've ever known is meaningless.

[ChromeAngel 3,230]

On 11/24/2019 at 3:18 PM, xoxo Craig said:

Yes and if you aren't getting enough nutrients, especially when you are THAT young, you are gonna be underweight and develop serious health complications... which the Vegan diet does. The vegan diet really starves your body of the nutrients that it needs, and because of that you can develop a whole host of medical issues. 

Okay please just answer me this and I’ll 100% convert to your side. WHAT NUTRIENTS do humans require that can only be found in meat? 

[StrawberryBlond 15,555]

20 minutes ago, ChromeAngel said:

Okay please just answer me this and I’ll 100% convert to your side. WHAT NUTRIENTS do humans require that can only be found in meat? 

I know I'm answering his question for him but I figure he's done plenty of replying already and might appreciate outside assistance. And seeing as you laughed at my post, I feel somewhat involved.

The nutrients humans require that can only be found in meat and/or dairy are vitamin B12, creatine, carnosine, heme iron and taurine. There's also a dietery form of vitamin D (vitamin D3) which can only be found in animal foods. DHA can be in vegan foods but only through converting it via foods containing ALA and the conversion process is fairly inefficient. This is why, to be a truly healthy vegan, you have to be on a whole host of supplements. Not everyone can afford a lifetime of expensive supplements, especially if they're forgetful and have to take existing medications on top of that. But again, if you take supplements along with a well-planned vegan diet, you can be healthy, I'm not denying that. Basically, if supplements exist, there's no reason to still eat meat and dairy. But your question wasn't about why we won't take supplementary options, it was simply asking what nutrients can only be found in meat. You can still disagree with non vegan diets after this but these medical facts can't be denied.

[Didymus 34,380]

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

How is it not restrictive? Meat and dairy are two massive food groups.

That's not true though. There is far greater diversity in fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds than there could ever be in meat and dairy You're thinking of prepared dishes rather than the ingredients. Just because restaurants aren't used to preparing food in a vegan friendly manner doesn't mean veganism is restrictive. In fact, current offerings in mainstream restaurants are restrictive because so many plates adhere to the tired "a piece of meat and some side veggies" recipe.

I also don't understand how you claim that veganist options are less nutritious than your average non-vegan restaurant plate. What the hell. The opposite is always true.

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Of course meat/dairy diets can be very harmful but only if they're not done right. All my family eat meat and dairy and the worst thing that's resulted from that is high blood pressure, but then, that's just a general ailment among the older generation anyway. My uncle's eaten meat and dairy all his life and his cholesterol is outstandingly low, his blood pressure is in the perfect range and he's never suffered constipation. Basically, everything vegans say meat and dairy will cause, he doesn't get it.

You do realize you sound exactly like those people who say "well, my granddad smoked all his life and he never got cancer?"

There are way too many scientific studies that plainly show how veganism is without a doubt the most overall healthy dietary lifestyle because of the risks involved in eating red meat and consuming any animal protein in general, even on a molecular level.

Don't confuse your own experience and intuition with facts. This idea of "eat balanced" is ridiculously outdated and completely unwise. A bit of processed meat can give you cancer right off the bat. Is that supposed to be something to champion?

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And as for animal cruelty - the way most animals are killed for human consumption is far more humane than how they're killed in the wild. They'd probably live no longer in the wild either.

Complete fantasy. It's not about slaughter methods only, most vegans are appalled by how animals live their lives prior to being sent to the slaughterhouse. The whole slaughter oriented debate is inappropriate for that reason. The systematic animal abuse occurs way earlier.

Give me one example of an animal species imprisoning, abusing, exploiting and murdering another animal species for food and I'll be convinced but we both know you can't. The systematic nature of the violence that modern farm animals suffer is completely unparallelled and is absolutely inexcusable.

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And damage to the environment is from a variety of factors and if the whole world went vegan, very little would change.

All scientific reports ever written about this subject 100% disagree with this statement.

For the love of God, inform yourself before you speak, especially if you're going to try to present facts and not your own opinion.

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

But an adult's diet shouldn't be forced on a developing child, especially all that high-sugar fruit when their teeth are developing. And making them take supplements is a big undertaking. If anything, give that child the choice to become vegan when they're older, then it'll mean something. If you want to become vegan of your own choosing, it's meaningful. Having it forced on you and continuing it because it's all you've ever known is meaningless.

This again departs from the idea that eating meat and dairy is normal, when that is exactly the ideology that is questionable. Veganism is not something you force on people. A vegan diet is simply absent of animal products which are both unnecessary and highly problematic from an ethical perspective. Is it wiser, kinder, to force an ethically problematic lifestyle on your kids, have them contribute to the rise of factory farming which is making the rate of systematic animal abuse and environmental destruction accelerate with an ever-increasing speed?

I'd say it's not. I'd say people have to make the decision to eat animal products and be able to defend why. Because it's not normal anymore in current conditions. Modern farming is not normal and it has no equivalent in our history so the "ancestors" theories (which are all false btw, most early humans thrived on a vegan diet) are both unnecessary and irrelevant. To choose to finance factory farms is a very problematic choice for a host of different reasons. That's the choice that should be made after a period of education and maturity.

In an ideal future it's omnivores who would have to request meat and dairy in restaurants, not vegans requesting their absence. That would be far more normal than the situation we have today: people and their kids eating abused animals and related products five or more times a day, destroying the planet and their own health in the process.

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

On 11/24/2019 at 1:05 PM, goods said:

I've gone fully vegan recently and I'm certain that it's not vegan diet that killed this poor baby. Stop feeding into stigma!

Because you are an adult.

Guess what's the most important food for children that young? It's milk. 

You can't compare the body needs for a full grown adult to a 1 yr old baby who is still developing his organs, his brain etc...

[StrawberryBlond 15,555]

On 12/1/2019 at 1:27 PM, Didymus said:

That's not true though. There is far greater diversity in fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds than there could ever be in meat and dairy You're thinking of prepared dishes rather than the ingredients. Just because restaurants aren't used to preparing food in a vegan friendly manner doesn't mean veganism is restrictive. In fact, current offerings in mainstream restaurants are restrictive because so many plates adhere to the tired "a piece of meat and some side veggies" recipe.

I also don't understand how you claim that veganist options are less nutritious than your average non-vegan restaurant plate. What the hell. The opposite is always true.

You do realize you sound exactly like those people who say "well, my granddad smoked all his life and he never got cancer?"

There are way too many scientific studies that plainly show how veganism is without a doubt the most overall healthy dietary lifestyle because of the risks involved in eating red meat and consuming any animal protein in general, even on a molecular level.

Don't confuse your own experience and intuition with facts. This idea of "eat balanced" is ridiculously outdated and completely unwise. A bit of processed meat can give you cancer right off the bat. Is that supposed to be something to champion?

Complete fantasy. It's not about slaughter methods only, most vegans are appalled by how animals live their lives prior to being sent to the slaughterhouse. The whole slaughter oriented debate is inappropriate for that reason. The systematic animal abuse occurs way earlier.

Give me one example of an animal species imprisoning, abusing, exploiting and murdering another animal species for food and I'll be convinced but we both know you can't. The systematic nature of the violence that modern farm animals suffer is completely unparallelled and is absolutely inexcusable.

All scientific reports ever written about this subject 100% disagree with this statement.

For the love of God, inform yourself before you speak, especially if you're going to try to present facts and not your own opinion.

This again departs from the idea that eating meat and dairy is normal, when that is exactly the ideology that is questionable. Veganism is not something you force on people. A vegan diet is simply absent of animal products which are both unnecessary and highly problematic from an ethical perspective. Is it wiser, kinder, to force an ethically problematic lifestyle on your kids, have them contribute to the rise of factory farming which is making the rate of systematic animal abuse and environmental destruction accelerate with an ever-increasing speed?

I'd say it's not. I'd say people have to make the decision to eat animal products and be able to defend why. Because it's not normal anymore in current conditions. Modern farming is not normal and it has no equivalent in our history so the "ancestors" theories (which are all false btw, most early humans thrived on a vegan diet) are both unnecessary and irrelevant. To choose to finance factory farms is a very problematic choice for a host of different reasons. That's the choice that should be made after a period of education and maturity.

In an ideal future it's omnivores who would have to request meat and dairy in restaurants, not vegans requesting their absence. That would be far more normal than the situation we have today: people and their kids eating abused animals and related products five or more times a day, destroying the planet and their own health in the process.

But a lot of vegetables, nuts and grains all taste fairly similar and bland. Animal products cover so many things - of course I'm thinking about prepared dishes but those prepared dishes contain ingredients, obviously. At most, I could cut out meat but cut out dairy and eggs as well and there would be an extreme lack of stuff I could eat that I enjoy. That's the definition of restrictive. It's restrictive when you can't simply buy a packet of cheese but have to make it yourself out of a concoction of ingredients that contain nothing like actual cheese. Restriction also comes from not being allowed food you enjoy. Nearly all dishes rely on "meat and side veggies" - what restaurant do you go to? Out of animal product dishes that aren't composed of this like...curry, breaded fish, pizza, burger, pasta, sushi and I could go on. Vegetarian/vegan dishes are usually composed almost entirely of vegetables, rice and processed fake meat/dairy alternatives. And the vegan options can be less nutritious because dishes composed almost entirely of the afforementioned ingredients are very low in calories. 3 meals of vegetables a day, for example, will not actually contain much nutrition because it doesn't have enough calories to nourish you.

I knew you'd probably use the "you sound like comparing it to smoking" excuse. An animal product diet is obviously nowhere near as dangerous as smoking. Millions have been dying for years because of smoking, millions have not been dying for years due to eating meat and dairy.  You can find anything that supports your theory if you look hard enough. There's just as many studies saying that meat is good for you as much as there are saying veganism is good for you. We're all going to die anyway. And if we live a bit longer on a vegan diet? I'd rather eat what I enjoy and live a bit less. These extra years will come at the end of your life when you're old and decrepit anyway, when you're be too tired and frail to enjoy your life fully.

You're using your experience and intuition over facts as well. "Eat balanced" is one of the most enduringly healthy ideas. Everyone I've ever known who's eaten balanced have lived long lives. By comparison, those who eat super healthy (and exercised all the time) were getting ill and dying young. I'm starting to realise with time that pushing yourself too far, with diet and more, is bad news. Extremes are rarely healthy. A bit of processed meat can give you cancer right off the bat? What?! If that's the case, myself and all my family would've gotten cancer years ago. If we weren't meant to eat meat, it would make us dangerously ill almost immediately or kill us. We consume it, process it and keep living. We're made to eat it.

I was also referring to the lives animals live before slaughter as well. Of course I'd never support overcrowding, battery farming, abuse and cull of male animals. Free range chickens, field-raised cows, etc are perfectly fine. How is that sad? That's the best life for an animal of their kind. Cows in a field will happily stand in one space eating grass all day while barely moving. Trust me, I've watched. What more does a cow's life need? Animals raised humanely have the time of their lives prior to their slaughter.

Of course I can't give you an example of animals imprisoning and exploiting a species because they don't have the mental or physical capabilities to do that. False equivalency. If they could do that, they would. The carnivores anyway. And well, a lot of species certainly sexually abuse the females in mating season and that's simply how they mate and yet that's outrageous to us and the black widow spider kills the male after they've mated. Rates of humanity differ from species to species. Animals do terrible things and we're animals too. It's how we're made.

I have supported my thoughts with stuff I've read from scientific reports. As I said before, if you search long enough online, you'll find evidence to support whatever you want to believe. It's no better or worse to what you're doing.

It is entirely normal, we're not herbivores, our bodies are not made like that of a herbivore. Our teeth, mouths and stomach are not the same. I never said all vegans force their diet on people, I don't think any diet should be. And I wouldn't force kids to eat meat, I'd just simply introduce a varied diets in small amounts. If they don't like meat, they don't have to eat it. They don't have to eat anything they don't like, so long as they're still eating enough to be nutritionally viable. I just don't think the exact opposite should be forced on them either. If vegans are all about being humane, why aren't they more concerned about the health and wellbeing of their fellow humans? Why still insist that we're meant to be herbivores when we're not? You don't want animals to fight against their natural diet, why should humans?

I eat animal products and can defend why. If you think my defence is good or not is a matter of opinion, as are yours. Early humans have never thrived on a vegan diet, this is nonsense, it's a ridiculous vegan re-write of history. Fruit and veg don't grow in cold northern countries in the cold months. Those people had no options but to eat meat in generations before. But no, apparently, artificially growing vegan crops is more natural than eating meat. And I'm not suggesting we support "factory farming" but humane farming. For the record, the amount of meat produced outstrips demand, so I think we can dramatically cut back on production.

You think variety being the spice of life is abnormal? And did you not see the response to made to @ChromeAngel above? What do you have to say to that?

[ChromeAngel 3,230]

On 12/1/2019 at 6:48 AM, StrawberryBlond said:

I know I'm answering his question for him but I figure he's done plenty of replying already and might appreciate outside assistance. And seeing as you laughed at my post, I feel somewhat involved.

The nutrients humans require that can only be found in meat and/or dairy are vitamin B12, creatine, carnosine, heme iron and taurine. There's also a dietery form of vitamin D (vitamin D3) which can only be found in animal foods. DHA can be in vegan foods but only through converting it via foods containing ALA and the conversion process is fairly inefficient. This is why, to be a truly healthy vegan, you have to be on a whole host of supplements. Not everyone can afford a lifetime of expensive supplements, especially if they're forgetful and have to take existing medications on top of that. But again, if you take supplements along with a well-planned vegan diet, you can be healthy, I'm not denying that. Basically, if supplements exist, there's no reason to still eat meat and dairy. But your question wasn't about why we won't take supplementary options, it was simply asking what nutrients can only be found in meat. You can still disagree with non vegan diets after this but these medical facts can't be denied.

B12 is produced by bacteria found in soil. It’s also found in natural water sources. Go eat an unwashed plant from the ground and you will get b12, assuming the soil isn’t destroyed. This is how humans have done it all of human history up until recently.

Creatine and Carnosine are both synthesized in the body and have plant sources. You are not required to eat heme iron. I’ve been vegan for about 7 years and I’m not iron deficient. I have no known deficiencies at all and absolutely no health concerns. I don’t usually take supplements and it’s been a couple years since I have.  Taurine is synthesized in the body. In fact if you’re male your testicles are producing it as we speak  

Look and a carnivore and then take a look at a human. Do you not see the difference? It’s strange how so many people, the same people who (should) naturally experience empathy towards animals, would also like to somehow believe they’re natural born killers. Listen to your body. 

[Didymus 34,380]

7 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

But a lot of vegetables, nuts and grains all taste fairly similar and bland.

7 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

3 meals of vegetables a day, for example, will not actually contain much nutrition because it doesn't have enough calories to nourish you.

7 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

There's just as many studies saying that meat is good for you as much as there are saying veganism is good for you.

7 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Animals raised humanely have the time of their lives prior to their slaughter.

Don't you live in the US? 99% of all animal products Americans eat come from factory farming. So yeah... nope. Do your research. Factory farming is growing dramatically fast to the expense of local farms who give their animals enough space and opportunities to exhibit natural animal behavior.

The facts are not on your side, trust me. Despicable misrepresentation of reality in your posts, my god. I'm honestly stunned. Free-range eggs? You believe in those myths designed to ease consumers' natural discomfort about torturing animals and forbidding them from going outside and exhibit normal behavior? Most "free-range" chickens never see the sun or feel the air on their feathers. Free-range just means they're not in battery cages lol. That's not having the time of your life...

7 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

It is entirely normal, we're not herbivores, our bodies are not made like that of a herbivore. Our teeth, mouths and stomach are not the same

And they're not the same as natural carnivores either

7 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Early humans have never thrived on a vegan diet, this is nonsense, it's a ridiculous vegan re-write of history. Fruit and veg don't grow in cold northern countries in the cold months.

So now you're using cold northern countries as the standard for all humanity? Those people were forced to eat meat because they chose to migrate to areas that were uninhabitable otherwise. The vast majority of other humans could survive perfectly on fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds. This is very well established, you're running behind on your historical readings.

Super disappointing reply. You support humane farming lmfao. I'd like to see your grocery receipts. I bet you're doing a marvellous job. Enjoy paying for animal abuse.

[Didymus 34,380]

7 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

A bit of processed meat can give you cancer right off the bat? What?! If that's the case, myself and all my family would've gotten cancer years ago. If we weren't meant to eat meat, it would make us dangerously ill almost immediately or kill us. We consume it, process it and keep living. We're made to eat it.

Again showing off your fundamental ignorance about the subjects under discussion. The (very conservative) World Health Organization has confirmed that processed meats (sausages, bacon,...) absolutely cause cancer and that other red meats "probably" do.

Processed meat is regarded to be just as risky in relation to cancer as alcohol and plutonium, meaning: you can get cancer just from consuming processed meat (and "probably" other red meats). So yes. You have been consuming cancer, paying for a greater cancer risk probably like two times a day. Enjoy.

Here's another fun figure for you: "Estimates suggest 34,000 deaths from cancer every year could be down to diets high in processed meat."

Immediately lobbyists, industry representatives and farmer unions jumped on these facts and negated their importance out of fear of selling less products. You're one of the people who have been fooled by their ridiculous, unscientific rhetoric. Congratulations.

Source

[PartySick 172,389]

A thought occurs, is human milk vegan? I've heard is is because you can get consent but it's still technically an animal product

[Didymus 34,380]

5 minutes ago, PartySick said:

A thought occurs, is human milk vegan? I've heard is is because you can get consent but it's still technically an animal product

Of course it's vegan.

Humans, like cows and other mammals, produce milk exactly because it's supposed to nourish their children. There couldn't be a greater difference with cow's milk which is acquired by artificially inseminating mother cows, stealing their children away from them as soon as they're born so farmers can come in and steal all the milk themselves so humans (who don't benefit at all from drinking milk) can drink it while the cow's own children get an artificial diet.

Veganism is not about technical definitions. It's merely a response to what vegans consider inhumane practices of animal abuse. There's no separating animal products from some level of animal abuse. Breastfeeding, however, has absolutely no morally problematic dimensions.