The contradiction of 'Born This Way'

[Didymus 32,701]

16 hours ago, SpookyKid said:

No, she would be contradicting it if she changed / got fillers because it's a beauty standart, she does it for herself

She does it for herself to fit internalized beauty standards Come on now. No one even puts on make-up solely for themselves, let alone go to a plastic surgeon.

[Didymus 32,701]

20 hours ago, NIGHTCRAWLER said:

I know that some Christians choose what they think is good in the Bible and ignore what they don't agree but the purpose of the debate was to say that if this holy book is your proof that a God exist, you should take it as a whole. Cause if you only choose some parts, it's nothing more than any other book you know what I mean? Think about it like laws (I've said earlier that the Bible was made to keep a social order bc there weren't laws back then), you can't choose which laws you follow and which one you ignore you know? And the fact that the Bible does not evolve make it irrelevant nowadays so believers have to make it evolve in the interpretation. The thing is that a population evolves and has to evolve. This is part of our nature so from the start I don't know how did someone consider that it was convenient to make a timeless code. But I can tell you that a timeless code can never ever ever work, neither on Mars or any other planet or any other species. That's why I can tell that as time goes, religion will recede more and more from the Bible.

Hmm.. but the thing is, the Bible isn't a code (and no, it wasn't created because there were no laws back then, there definitely were lol). Christians have debated the right interpretation of that (ever self-contradicting) book for centuries, ever since it was codified really. People have been picking and choosing from the start, so I don't get the whole evolution thing. Christianity has never been static and has always evolved up to the very present. Christianity has never been so Bible-focused as you seem to think it has been.

It's interesting you bring up the law system because it works the same way. Most members of this website acquire music, films etc. illegally via pirating, but they wouldn't say they're not following the law in essence. People don't work well with codes in general, so I don't understand why you're only focusing on the Bible. I think you need to get a broader perspective and think more of human nature in general and how it's in its nature to be contradicting and paradoxical at all times.

[NIGHTCRAWLER 6,985]

43 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Hmm.. but the thing is, the Bible isn't a code (and no, it wasn't created because there were no laws back then, there definitely were lol). Christians have debated the right interpretation of that (ever self-contradicting) book for centuries, ever since it was codified really. People have been picking and choosing from the start, so I don't get the whole evolution thing. Christianity has never been static and has always evolved up to the very present. Christianity has never been so Bible-focused as you seem to think it has been.

It's interesting you bring up the law system because it works the same way. Most members of this website acquire music, films etc. illegally via pirating, but they wouldn't say they're not following the law in essence. People don't work well with codes in general, so I don't understand why you're only focusing on the Bible. I think you need to get a broader perspective and think more of human nature in general and how it's in its nature to be contradicting and paradoxical at all times.

well I'm a law student and I've studied the history of law and especially during the XI and XIII century, there was no state like now and it was the church (bishops and the Pope) who made the rules, based on the Bible or any religious belief. So no, at least in Europe there were no laws back then, excepted those from the church. Since they hadn't sanctions like now, they used the fear of Hell to keep that social order. I don't think you heard about it but did you know that if you were suspected for a crime, they would give you a test (that is called "ordeal") and the result would determine if you're guilty or not. For example they could ask you to fight with a sword against a professional and if you lose, that means that God made you lose so you're guilty. That was so irrational and the only argument was: God will choose the issue, which will proof if guilty or not.

And about Christianity that isn't so Bible-focused, I've already said my opinion on this which is that if you consider the Bible as the holy book, the proof that there is a God, then you have to take it as a whole because if you choose which part is good to you and which part isn't, it's nothing more than any other book you know what I mean? And if you're really practicing your religion I just can't understand that you're not clear with the Bible or worse, that you did not read it. The thing is also that long ago people were absolutely and full dedicated to the Bible and as time goes, people are less and less. They recede more and more from the Bible because many points are not relevant anymore in our current society. So I've understood that many Christians don't rely that much on the Bible but they shouldn't forget that all their dogmas and beliefs come from this very book. No shade but when you say "Christianity has never been so Bible-focused" you just lose credibility because it shows that you haven't studied the subject.

[NewUsername 10,337]

1 hour ago, NIGHTCRAWLER said:

Oh that's cool that you do some philosophy at school! Of course you can't prove it doesn't exist but it's not the role of the atheists to prove it doesn't, it's the role of the believers to prove it does tbh !

It was a course during my studies at university

[Lord Temptation 11,209]

Every time you put on clothes you are changing your appearance. Gaga wasn’t born with tattoos either so it’s not a contradiction for her to say to love yourself because you were born that way  but also change your appearance with wigs, fashion, tattoos, Epione 

Same as with transgendered people. If a woman is born as a man, it doesn’t mean that she is not a woman. Who she was when she was born doesn’t mean that she is condemned to stay the same. Life is about endless transformation. It takes strength to accept change.

You are allowed to change your mind, just as you are allowed to change your appearance. 

Because you were born to be brave 

[Didymus 32,701]

So to continue

The texts of the Christian Bible were written in centuries entirely dominated by Roman law though What you're describing is a law system in a time when Christianity had already succeeded in becoming a state religion. There was definitely a law system, which was why so many early Christian were officially persecuted, hell, even the example of Jesus Christ being executed makes it clear that Roman law was in effect during the Bible writing

Also, like you said, the church made the laws, so that automatically implies the Bible was not created to provide laws, and you're right. The Christian Bible is notorious for not having any code of law or faith or even system of basic rules of conduct. Those all had to be and were invented later, supposedly in line with the "essence" of the Bible. And there, again, is the point: the greatest Christian philosophers admitted themselves already in antiquity that the Gospels had no theology presented in it. The most famous Christian ideas like the Holy Trinity and the idea that Jesus is the Son of God appear nowhere in the Gospels, yet they have determined the faith of almost every Christian.

Anyway, of course I understand what you're talking about and I get it, I just don't think it's well thought out. Christians definitely have their own explanations for why they don't have to follow everything that's in the Bible. They can use a lot of excuses. I get that your kneejerk response is "but then that's not fair! Then how can the Bible be the word of God?!" but that's just not an effective argument. At the end of the day Christians believe all that crap about the Bible because someone they think of as authoritative told them so. It's better to focus on that: where did people get the idea that the Bible was holy? Christians' faith in the Bible hinges on that, not on the Bible itself, its internal consistency or whatever.

[NIGHTCRAWLER 6,985]

3 hours ago, Didymus said:

So to continue

1.The texts of the Christian Bible were written in centuries entirely dominated by Roman law though What you're describing is a law system in a time when Christianity had already succeeded in becoming a state religion. There was definitely a law system, which was why so many early Christian were officially persecuted, hell, even the example of Jesus Christ being executed makes it clear that Roman law was in effect during the Bible writing

2.Also, like you said, the church made the laws, so that automatically implies the Bible was not created to provide laws, and you're right. The Christian Bible is notorious for not having any code of law or faith or even system of basic rules of conduct. Those all had to be and were invented later, supposedly in line with the "essence" of the Bible. And there, again, is the point: the greatest Christian philosophers admitted themselves already in antiquity that the Gospels had no theology presented in it. The most famous Christian ideas like the Holy Trinity and the idea that Jesus is the Son of God appear nowhere in the Gospels, yet they have determined the faith of almost every Christian.

3. Anyway, of course I understand what you're talking about and I get it, I just don't think it's well thought out. Christians definitely have their own explanations for why they don't have to follow everything that's in the Bible. They can use a lot of excuses. I get that your kneejerk response is "but then that's not fair! Then how can the Bible be the word of God?!" but that's just not an effective argument. At the end of the day Christians believe all that crap about the Bible because someone they think of as authoritative told them so. It's better to focus on that: where did people get the idea that the Bible was holy? Christians' faith in the Bible hinges on that, not on the Bible itself, its internal consistency or whatever.

1. what is wrong here is that roman law was used during the Roman Empire which disappeared in 476 (I remember everything so well cause I had my exam on this literally 2 weeks ago). So of course they already had religion since Constantin (an emperor) brought Christianity into the Roman Empire in the IV century. And then the Roman law disappeared more and more because of the canon law (the law of the churches) and as I said it was at its peak between the XI and the XIII century. By that time the Roman Law had disappeared and everything was directed by the church (especially the Roman church) and the Pope had so so much power because of "Gregoire VII" and its Gregorian reform. Literally the emperor hadn't any power anymore. And as you said in the early VI century Christians were persecuted, but just because they didn't accept the romans' Gods (cause they had a polytheistic religion).

2. that is very right. the church made the rules but of course based on their beliefs and on the Bible (at least how they interpreted it). And as you said, some things like the Holy Trinity appeared in 325 during the Council of Nicaea were they literally started to organize the church and to introduce the canon law. So those things are not part of the Bible or anything it was clearly invented later. But I know that I'm in my mind I wrongly and unconsciously associate those things (especially the canon law) to the Bible! Anyway I can tell it's really interesting to see how the canon law has influenced our law. Even now you can find multiple influences on our current laws (not as much as the roman law but still). 

Anyway I know I'm going further than the reality and I'm only interested in thinking as far as possible. At the end of the day I respect obviously any belief (except when it comes to inequality or discrimination etc of course, basically except when it contradicts our current laws) and I've now cleary understood that a lot of Christians are not that much into the Bible and they focus more on the message as a whole and on God itself. I'm truly happy as long as they can find their peace that way but of course it angers me when it leads to old social dogmas that are discriminating or smt you know.  

Hope I'm not bothering you with writing that much! 

Thank you a lot for taking your time to share your knowledge and discuss!! Can I ask you how do you know all that? Have studied history as well or smt? 

[Shaney 5,515]

On 9/4/2018 at 2:38 AM, NIGHTCRAWLER said:

me bopping: "I'M BEAUTIFUL IN MY WAY, CAUSE THE UNIVERSE MAKES NOOO MISTAKE" 

i mean like... don't replace the word literally lol... just think of God as the Universe. 

[NIGHTCRAWLER 6,985]

3 minutes ago, Bae said:

i mean like... don't replace the word literally lol... just think of God as the Universe. 

I was kidding too ahahah 

[Didymus 32,701]

4 hours ago, NIGHTCRAWLER said:

...And then the Roman law disappeared more and more because of the canon law (the law of the churches)...

But that's my point. You said the Bible was written to create a law because it wasn't there. But the Christian Bible was written during a time where every Christian was acquainted with Roman law so that was just a mistake.

No biggie though

4 hours ago, NIGHTCRAWLER said:

Anyway I can tell it's really interesting to see how the canon law has influenced our law. Even now you can find multiple influences on our current laws (not as much as the roman law but still).

Oh definitely! Our whole way of thinking and living is still very much influenced by Christian ideals, absolutely, regardless of whether people realize it or not

4 hours ago, NIGHTCRAWLER said:

I've now cleary understood that a lot of Christians are not that much into the Bible and they focus more on the message as a whole and on God itself.

Well, you're definitely right in finding that strange. I think it's strange too, and it's fascinating and unexpected (and irritating), definitely. I've just learned out of experience that it's true and that usually Christians themselves just aren't very impressed when you start analyzing or attacking the Bible

4 hours ago, NIGHTCRAWLER said:

Thank you a lot for taking your time to share your knowledge and discuss!! Can I ask you how do you know all that? Have studied history as well or smt? 

I'm studying religion academically actually. Not as a theologian or anything but as a historian. Doing it for five years now so that explains something, I'm sure Thanks for making the thread(s) anyway, I really like talking about these more "serious" subjects with members.

Just hope they won't get locked anymore

[Ronk 14,067]

Gaga expresses various meanings of the term "born this way".  The word "freedom" has been mentioned in this thread.  For those who haven't heard Gaga say this in an interview, it is at 6:40 into this video: 

"You have the freedom to pull the superstar out of yourself that you were born to be.  We are all born superstars."

https://vimeo.com/268317046

Also, at 9:05 into that video Gaga expresses that the BTW foundation is an "organization centered around anti-bullying".

While her support for LGBT is unwavering and strong, she doesn't limit her support.  She helps as many people she can in as many ways she can.  Lately she is helping with mental heath.  It seems wherever she sees a need, she is there. 

[StarstruckIllusion 41,937]

On 9/3/2018 at 11:32 AM, GagaIsDope said:

The bible was written by lots of different people over several centuries. If you believe in God, you do not need to agree with everything in the bible. It is not the direct word of God.

Woah really? Then what’s the point of it lol bye I’m pissed. I feel lied to.