Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel

[Dominic 11,922]

1 hour ago, Doot said:

And agree 100% on Xander. He was the worst character for me, such a douche bag. However, I thought The Pack was an exceptional episode. It really brought out the emotion for me, especially the bullying aspect. I felt terrible for Willow with the things he said to her. I was able to relate to my own High School experience.

Ouch, The Pack was one of the worst episodes  Xander always seemed one of the more realistic characters. He started off as the jealous high schooler, full of testosterone, goofy and a loser. His struggle to fit in whilst all his friends went to Uni being that 'loser' guy living in his mums basement. His relationship with Anya really helped him grow and he was always the guy who was finding his place in the world and the group. The Replacement was one of his best episodes, seeing this 'other' Xander excel at everything was such a relateable moment. He eventually goes on to save the world in S6 and then the speech to Dawn in The Potential was one of the best in the entire series. 

He grew from the jealous school kid. Definitely never saw him as the worst. I could give that to Riley tbh...or Dawn but Junior Watcher Dawn saved her character. 

[Doot 2]

1 minute ago, Dominic Marc said:

Ouch, The Pack was one of the worst episodes  Xander always seemed one of the more realistic characters. He started off as the jealous high schooler, full of testosterone, goofy and a loser. His struggle to fit in whilst all his friends went to Uni being that 'loser' guy living in his mums basement. His relationship with Anya really helped him grow and he was always the guy who was finding his place in the world and the group. The Replacement was one of his best episodes, seeing this 'other' Xander excel at everything was such a relateable moment. He eventually goes on to save the world in S6 and then the speech to Dawn in The Potential was one of the best in the entire series. 

He grew from the jealous school kid. Definitely never saw him as the worst. I could give that to Riley tbh...or Dawn but Junior Watcher Dawn saved her character. 

He turned into a **** in Season 6. I mean, you leave someone at the altar and then still expect to date them...that's inexcusable. He definitely had the occasional moment that I enjoyed (his talk to Buffy at the end of Into The Woods and his talk to Dawn at the end of Potential), but his shitty character was just too much for me.

If you are sitting in front of your friend and their new significant other, would you honestly say how you missed their ex? WTF.

[DeanWinchester 41,390]

3 minutes ago, Doot said:

Why are we not best friends?

 

you tell me, doot

is because you prefer angel over spike lmao jk it's not a big deal

are you also a contributor on the wiki?

[Dominic 11,922]

Just now, Doot said:

He turned into a **** in Season 6. I mean, you leave someone at the altar and then still expect to date them...that's inexcusable. He definitely had the occasional moment that I enjoyed (his talk to Buffy at the end of Into The Woods and his talk to Dawn at the end of Potential), but his shitty character was just too much for me.

If you are sitting in front of your friend and their new significant other, would you honestly say how you missed their ex? WTF.

Other than leaving Anya I can't really find fault with him. Xander was the only normal guy so his actions always seemed worse for the viewer imo because it was realistic. Anya killing a whole fraternity, Willow attempting to kill Dawn, Giles killing Ben and even like Andrew and his ways were never seen as 'bad' because it was so far removed from reality. Xander leaving Anya at the altar however was more realistic and hits harder for that reason so that's why I think people see him as the worst. If anything his normalness made him one of the more complex characters, ass or not

[Doot 2]

10 minutes ago, DeanWinchester said:

you tell me, doot

is because you prefer angel over spike lmao jk it's not a big deal

are you also a contributor on the wiki?

 

I do not, but I totally should because my life revolves around those two shows

[Doot 2]

Just now, Dominic Marc said:

Other than leaving Anya I can't really find fault with him. Xander was the only normal guy so his actions always seemed worse for the viewer imo because it was realistic. Anya killing a whole fraternity, Willow attempting to kill Dawn, Giles killing Ben and even like Andrew and his ways were never seen as 'bad' because it was so far removed from reality. Xander leaving Anya at the altar however was more realistic and hits harder for that reason so that's why I think people see him as the worst. If anything his normalness made him one of the more complex characters, ass or not

See, while what Anya did was wrong, and Buffy was totally justified with trying to take her out, she does have some sort of reasoning. She was a demon for 1000 years and never learned mortal ways. She was only mortal for 4 years. 4 vs 1000 is a big ****ing difference.

Willow was under the influence of dark magics. That was not completely her, not to mention she even said "I wasn't going to hurt her, buzzkill". I am not sure why even Buffy disregarded that in later seasons.

Giles needed to kill Ben, that was 100% justified all the way. Even Buffy later stated she would have killed Dawn if faced with the same decision again. Xander, yeah, him leaving Anya was realistic, but that doesn't make it any less shitty.

[DeanWinchester 41,390]

1 minute ago, Doot said:

 

I do not, but I totally should because my life revolves around those two shows

well im here anytime you want to discuss the show. one of the biggest inconsistencies ive noticed about the mythology is how Joss is adamant on denying the existence of the Christian God when crosses turn away vampires, a Catholic exorcism works on Ethros demons, water consecrated in the name of the Christian God works against vampires, etc. Consider how spells invoking deities of Egyptian or Greek pantheons imply those deities exist in the universe.

[Doot 2]

Just now, DeanWinchester said:

well im here anytime you want to discuss the show. one of the biggest inconsistencies ive noticed about the mythology is how Joss is adamant on denying the existence of the Christian God when crosses turn away vampires, a Catholic exorcism works on Ethros demons, water consecrated in the name of the Christian God works against vampires, etc. Consider how spells invoking deities of Egyptian or Greek pantheons imply those deities exist in the universe.

Was that something he said in an interview? While it isn't directly stated in the show, I mean, she does refer to herself as having been in "heaven". Granted, other characters state there are hundreds of heavenly dimensions, but she died and her soul went to heaven. Even when she speaks to Holden and he asks about God, she simply says "nothing concrete".

I see where you are coming from though. I think it sorta helped it in a way though, because with the facts you presented, that to me basically proves that there is some sort of God within that universe, but it didn't saturate the story line.

That was my issue with Supernatural at first. While I love the show, even with the religious storylines and stuff, I will say that for me personally, I enjoyed the storylines before they brought in Angels and such. 

[Dominic 11,922]

6 minutes ago, Doot said:

See, while what Anya did was wrong, and Buffy was totally justified with trying to take her out, she does have some sort of reasoning. She was a demon for 1000 years and never learned mortal ways. She was only mortal for 4 years. 4 vs 1000 is a big ****ing difference.

Willow was under the influence of dark magics. That was not completely her, not to mention she even said "I wasn't going to hurt her, buzzkill". I am not sure why even Buffy disregarded that in later seasons.

Giles needed to kill Ben, that was 100% justified all the way. Even Buffy later stated she would have killed Dawn if faced with the same decision again. Xander, yeah, him leaving Anya was realistic, but that doesn't make it any less shitty.

Could be a valid reason why Xander might not want to go through with the wedding.

Yeah it was a shitty move either way but my point is that people view him as the worst character because he was the most realistic

 

[DeanWinchester 41,390]

1 minute ago, Doot said:

Was that something he said in an interview? While it isn't directly stated in the show, I mean, she does refer to herself as having been in "heaven". Granted, other characters state there are hundreds of heavenly dimensions, but she died and her soul went to heaven. Even when she speaks to Holden and he asks about God, she simply says "nothing concrete".

I see where you are coming from though. I think it sorta helped it in a way though, because with the facts you presented, that to me basically proves that there is some sort of God within that universe, but it didn't saturate the story line.

That was my issue with Supernatural at first. While I love the show, even with the religious storylines and stuff, I will say that for me personally, I enjoyed the storylines before they brought in Angels and such. 

I'm not at all trying to say Joss should have saturated the Buffyverse with Christianity, I just wish he was more consistent in that aspect. He could even say something like Jesus is one of the Powers That Be or something like that and it would fit nicely with his narrative.

As for Supernatural, although I'm Catholic, I think Supernatural wasn't really pushing a Christian agenda on its viewers since it borrowed Biblical mythology but gave its own twist. They even often showed angels to have a different kind of morality which usually runs against that of humanity. And they are not afraid to introduce beings stronger than angels. What I hated was when they overstretched the heaven vs hell story when they had amazing opportunities with stuff like Purgatory, Avalon (fairy world), pagan deities, etc.

Anyway back on topic, what I do like about Angel(us) is how deviously cunning he was written during season 4 and how he could pull strings and cause the team to fall apart at the seams. Most other demons/enemies are physically violent in showcasing how evil they are, Angelus is a different kind of evil altogether.

[Doot 2]

3 minutes ago, Dominic Marc said:

Could be a valid reason why Xander might not want to go through with the wedding.

Yeah it was a shitty move either way but my point is that people view him as the worst character because he was the most realistic

 

Could be! 

1 minute ago, DeanWinchester said:

I'm not at all trying to say Joss should have saturated the Buffyverse with Christianity, I just wish he was more consistent in that aspect. He could even say something like Jesus is one of the Powers That Be or something like that and it would fit nicely with his narrative.

While I understand trying to keep the shows separate, they still exist within the same universe and follow the same laws, which is why it always annoyed me that there was no mention of the Powers on Buffy. Buffy seemed aware of them when she was on Angel, yet not a peep back in Sunnydale. I am pretty sure that with everything Buffy had done over the course of the show, they sure as **** would be just as interested in her as they were Angel. 

As for Supernatural, although I'm Catholic, I think Supernatural wasn't really pushing a Christian agenda on its viewers since it borrowed Biblical mythology but gave its own twist. They even often showed angels to have a different kind of morality which usually runs against that of humanity. And they are not afraid to introduce beings stronger than angels. What I hated was when they overstretched the heaven vs hell story when they had amazing opportunities with stuff like Purgatory, Avalon (fairy world), pagan deities, etc.

I am currently on the season with that annoying ass red headed witch lady. Kill ha! 

Anyway back on topic, what I do like about Angel(us) is how deviously cunning he was written during season 4 and how he could pull strings and cause the team to fall apart at the seams. Most other demons/enemies are physically violent in showcasing how evil they are, Angelus is a different kind of evil altogether.

Angelus was a fantastic character. I liked both portrayals of him, however, I thought that too was inconsistent. He seemed much more dark on Angel, but eh, no big deal. I think he brought a darkness to the show that was only really touched upon once, with Billy. I mean, he said he was going to "rape someone to death". That's dark. 

 

[DeanWinchester 41,390]

@Doot you kinda scrambled up the quotes but anyway

Quote

While I understand trying to keep the shows separate, they still exist within the same universe and follow the same laws, which is why it always annoyed me that there was no mention of the Powers on Buffy. Buffy seemed aware of them when she was on Angel, yet not a peep back in Sunnydale. I am pretty sure that with everything Buffy had done over the course of the show, they sure as **** would be just as interested in her as they were Angel.

True that was a problem. I haven't even noticed it until you brought it up. To think the slayer lineage was a powerful tool against evil, you'd think they had a hand on the creation of it. Meh.

Quote

I am currently on the season with that annoying ass red headed witch lady. Kill ha!

As much as Crowley, Rowena and their dynamics are fun, I really think they felt out of place and was a step down from the previous threats/big bads. I lost interest in the show around those seasons. Thank goodness I enjoyed the last two.

Quote

Angelus was a fantastic character. I liked both portrayals of him, however, I thought that too was inconsistent. He seemed much more dark on Angel, but eh, no big deal. I think he brought a darkness to the show that was only really touched upon once, with Billy. I mean, he said he was going to "rape someone to death". That's dark.

True. Before Angelus was released I was thinking "he wasn't really that bad as the characters hyped him up to be". But the way they wrote him in Angel 4 really surprised me.

Another thing I always thought weird was while the parallel of the Scoobies fighting the First Evil and Team Angel fighting a (rogue) PTB was nice, the way WR&H managed to defeat the First with the amulet was kinda weird. Plus, in Angel 2, WR&H claimed the world worked because of them, because of evil, when the First has been existing all the time. I've dusted it off as WR&H being overly ambitious and amassing powers from different sources, dimensions, beings, etc enough to challenge a primal entity (just like the Scoobies can take down hell gods) but eh, it's still weird at first glance and requires a lot of reflection and reviewing of the series to make sense out of it.

[Doot 2]

Just now, DeanWinchester said:

@Doot you kinda scrambled up the quotes but anyway

my bad  

 

True that was a problem. I haven't even noticed it until you brought it up. To think the slayer lineage was a powerful tool against evil, you'd think they had a hand on the creation of it. Meh.

Now you will forever not be unable to not notice it

 

As much as Crowley, Rowena and their dynamics are fun, I really think they felt out of place and was a step down from the previous threats/big bads. I lost interest in the show around those seasons. Thank goodness I enjoyed the last two.

For someone who managed to become the King of Hell, he really seemed unintelligent. I mean, it was obvious to everyone around him that she was full of ****. You couldn't even look at her without how obvious she was being displayed in the air. That season is definitely the low point for me.

 

True. Before Angelus was released I was thinking "he wasn't really that bad as the characters hyped him up to be". But the way they wrote him in Angel 4 really surprised me.

Yeah, same. He really didn't seem all that much more "evil" than any of the other monsters of the week they had. Even Season 1, when he took the happy pill, he seemed more or less like how they wrote him on Buffy. Angel Season 4 really cranked it up. 

Another thing I always thought weird was while the nice parallel of the Scoobies fighting the First Evil and Team Angel fighting a (rogue) PTB, the way WR&H managed to defeat the First with the amulet was kinda weird.

Well, they didn't technically defeat the First, they merely destroyed its army. The First still exists. It was simply relying on its army to tip the scales and make itself corporeal. I just didn't like how the amulet was given no explanation on Buffy. 

Plus, in Angel 2, WR&H claimed the world worked because of them, because of evil, when the First has been existing all the time. I've dusted it off as WR&H being overly ambitious and amassing powers from different sources, dimensions, beings, etc enough to challenge a primal entity (just like the Scoobies can take down hell gods) but eh, it's still weird at first glance and requires a lot of reflection and reviewing of the series to make sense out of it.

Yeah, Wolfram and Hart always seemed like they liked to toot their own horn a little bit, probably because according to Illyria, they were once even weaker than the vampire (I'd love to see what their original form looked like). I think this was another poor choice of not talking about Wolfram and Hart on Buffy. I understand the reasoning, trying to distinguish the two shows from one another, but to me, that would have still been possible even with mentioning things on either show. We know the First was around long before Wolfram and Hart, and we know (although for whatever reason people try to deny this) that the First brought Angel back from Hell, so...da fuq.

Although, Wolfram and Hart apparently knew what was going on with Buffy in Sunnydale, considering Angel got "coverage" on the whole thing. 

One thing that always kind of bothered me, was that they never really reached out to each other for help when things got tough, aside from Willow returning Angel's soul. There was legit be times where they would just be down on their luck with no hope, yet they never thought to reach out to the other team. Strange. 

 

[DeanWinchester 41,390]

@Doot you can highlight parts of my post and an option "Quote this" should appear, which would allow you to quote parts of my post (instead of the whole) and reply only to the quoted part, and then do it again on other parts. It makes it easier for me to reply after 

8 minutes ago, Doot said:

Well, they didn't technically defeat the First, they merely destroyed its army. The First still exists. It was simply relying on its army to tip the scales and make itself corporeal. I just didn't like how the amulet was given no explanation on Buffy. 

That's what I meant. I know it's still active, just with a severely reduced influence.

8 minutes ago, Doot said:

Yeah, Wolfram and Hart always seemed like they liked to toot their own horn a little bit, probably because according to Illyria, they were once even weaker than the vampire (I'd love to see what their original form looked like). I think this was another poor choice of not talking about Wolfram and Hart on Buffy. I understand the reasoning, trying to distinguish the two shows from one another, but to me, that would have still been possible even with mentioning things on either show. We know the First was around long before Wolfram and Hart, and we know (although for whatever reason people try to deny this) that the First brought Angel back from Hell, so...da fuq.

Although, Wolfram and Hart apparently knew what was going on with Buffy in Sunnydale, considering Angel got "coverage" on the whole thing. 

One thing that always kind of bothered me, was that they never really reached out to each other for help when things got tough, aside from Willow returning Angel's soul. There was legit be times where they would just be down on their luck with no hope, yet they never thought to reach out to the other team. Strange. 

Yeah, that line from Illyria is what I used to come up with a "headcanon" on how and why WF&H would even dare to come for the First.

Joss' Avengers caused this problem to any individual capeflick following that and before Captain America: Civil War. Why aren't they helping each other?

Basically I guess because they had their own big bads to fight  There were some throwaway lines here and there explaining that each team has their own hands tied or something like that iirc

By the way, going back to your concerns on the Hellmouth being different everytime it opens in Buffy, the answer is kind of a cop out but really, it's basically just magic. Pocket dimensions exist, so it's not too far-fetched as to why the entire underground have all sorts of sunken temples, churches, sewage system etc. And I think the Initiative is below UC Sunnydale, not the Sunnydale high. Also, the whole of Sunnydale is a hellmouth, it could just be that there are several access points throughout the city.

[GypsyBabe 22,836]

4 hours ago, DeanWinchester said:

 i'm an admin on the Buffy wiki