BANGLADESH: Editor of Nation's First LGBT Magazine Hacked To Death

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

26 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

Islam calls for the murder of gay people in cold blood. So does Christianity and so does Judaism. It's all in the Old Testament. 

Christianity doesn't call for the murder of gay people. The New Testament is all about not murdering. The Old Testament does call for a lot of murdering though  

Neither does Islam I believe. As long as they are practicing Muslims they just banish them. That's what the Prophet did. 

Still a lot of murdering going on in the old scripts. I keep telling people that the Bible should just cut out the Old Testament already and leave it as a historical text.

[MJHolland 12,725]

16 minutes ago, Ibo said:

It's true that more Muslims commit hate crimes than others, but that is, as I already said in my OP, because of where they live.

Muslims in the West don't go around killing gay people, it's the ones in countries where people aren't educated and have no one to tell them that being different is not a bad thing. 

A lot of children in Bangladesh don't even attend elementary school because of the low wages within the country. They can't afford going to school when their parents need help at home. It's not Islam that is making them kill gay people, it's a lot of things combined. One of them being the lack of education and the poor state of the country.

Also, I have yet to see exact lines that say "kill men who lay with men" in any holy book. Religion does play a role in all of this, I am not denying that, but it's not the one thing that motivates them to commit such horrible crimes (see UAE; they're not living by the Quran, but behaving the same way).

The punishment for homosexual acts in Sharia Law, which is blatantly stated in the Quran, is death.

In the Old Testament American Standard Version, Leviticus 20:13 says "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Both the Bible and the Quran tell people to murder gays. On religion is certainly not superior to other inherently in this case, but we no not observe nations of Christian fundamentalists blatantly murdered gay people like in Saudi Arabia.

It's interesting. You say it has to do with location, and for the most part I agree with you. However, there are extremely poor Christian nations (made up of extremely fundamental and conservative Christians) in eastern Europe who I don't think anyone would consider developed nations, and not a single one of these nations has homosexuality outlawed today.

Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, is one of the richest nations on Earth, especially in GDP per capita. The punishment for homosexuality in this country is death. If you're lucky, you'll be brutally tortured and then spend the rest of your life in prison.

While there is certainly a socio-economic link to acceptance of the LGBT community, religion does have an impact and it seems like Islam is extremely problematic for the LGBT community. We shouldn't ignore this and make excuses.

[MJHolland 12,725]

22 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

Christianity doesn't call for the murder of gay people. The New Testament is all about not murdering. The Old Testament does call for a lot of murdering though  

Neither does Islam I believe. As long as they are practicing Muslims they just banish them. That's what the Prophet did. 

Still a lot of murdering going on in the old scripts. I keep telling people that the Bible should just cut out the Old Testament already and leave it as a historical text.

Christianity is defined as someone who believes in the Old and New Testaments. You cannot just ignore the Old Testaments. Every single Christian believes in the Ten Commandments, a story in the Old Testament. 

Sorry, but you cannot just pick and chose the lines you want. Christianity endorses the murder of gay people, as does Islam and Judaism, and they all also endorse slavery.

But there is something about Islamic people that they think they can literally interpret this line in 2016. Christianity and Judaism do not have this problem. So lets objectively look at this. The problem does seem to be stemming from the followers of Islam.

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

13 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

The punishment for homosexual acts in Sharia Law, which is blatantly stated in the Quran, is death.

In the Old Testament American Standard Version, Leviticus 20:13 says "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Both the Bible and the Quran tell people to murder gays. On religion is certainly not superior to other inherently in this case, but we no not observe nations of Christian fundamentalists blatantly murdered gay people like in Saudi Arabia.

Erm. Remember that the Bible is not originally in English and was translated.

Translators can insert words that fit their own interpretation.

The most glaring is that many interpretations use terms like homosexuality which made no sense back then. 

A more direct translation is "a man who lies the lyings of a woman with a man."

So in fact it's more akin to being against those who were emulating being a woman. That is not what modern homosexuality is.

In fact many theologians argue that the condemnation was more about people embracing sexual acts during cult-like pagan rituals at temples as opposed to homosexuality in general. The context is there. The entire passage was part of a bigger condemnation of cult rituals.

So you can't use those quotes as proof of a stance against homosexuals, just pagans in general.

Mind you that's not any better. It's just not what you're trying to say.

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

8 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

Christianity is defined as someone who believes in the Old and New Testaments. You cannot just ignore the Old Testaments. Every single Christian believes in the Ten Commandments, a story in the Old Testament. 

Sorry, but you cannot just pick and chose the lines you want. Christianity endorses the murder of gay people, as does Islam and Judaism, and they all also endorse slavery.

But there is something about Islamic people that they think they can literally interpret this line in 2016. Christianity and Judaism do not have this problem. So lets objectively look at this. The problem does seem to be stemming from the followers of Islam.

... What are you saying? Every modern Christian, even the Pope himself, understands that the Old Testament is more akin to guidelines and historical context than fact.

Leviticus in particular is understood to be an outdated code of laws for society at the time. Here the Church is a little more vague in its stance, but it won't cast you as a sinner for wearing mixed fabrics.

Christians believe in the commandments but they were reiterated in the New Testament too with different framework. It's not about not knowing them. It's simply about focusing on the aspects of Christianity that pertain to love and sacrifice. It's not picking and choosing. It's going for spirituality as opposed to ideological religious zealotry.

What you're trying to imply is that people can't be Christian and believe in science. What is that logic?  

Faith is all about picking and choosing the parts that you relate to. People believe in religion for different reasons. Don't cast them all with the same brush.

Modern Christians more or less follow the paths of the New Testament rather than the Old. In fact that's exactly what separates Christians from Jews in both theory and practice.

[MJHolland 12,725]

45 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

Erm. Remember that the Bible is not originally in English and was translated.

Translators can insert words that fit their own interpretation.

The most glaring is that many interpretations use terms like homosexuality which made no sense back then. 

A more direct translation is "a man who lies the lyings of a woman with a man."

So in fact it's more akin to being against those who were emulating being a woman. That is not what modern homosexuality is.

In fact many theologians argue that the condemnation was more about people embracing sexual acts during cult-like pagan rituals at temples as opposed to homosexuality in general. The context is there. The entire passage was part of a bigger condemnation of cult rituals.

So you can't use those quotes as proof of a stance against homosexuals, just pagans in general.

Mind you that's not any better. It's just not what you're trying to say.

I dare you to find a modern translation of Lev 20:13 that doesn't say gays should be put to death.

Yet Christians rarely carry out hate crimes against gays because of it, and no Christian nation gives the death penalty for homosexuality. So why do so many Muslims?

44 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

... What are you saying? Every modern Christian, even the Pope himself, understands that the Old Testament is more akin to guidelines and historical context than fact.

Leviticus in particular is understood to be an outdated code of laws for society at the time. Here the Church is a little more vague in its stance, but it won't cast you as a sinner for wearing mixed fabrics.

Christians believe in the commandments but they were reiterated in the New Testament too with different framework. It's not about not knowing them. It's simply about focusing on the aspects of Christianity that pertain to love and sacrifice. It's not picking and choosing. It's going for spirituality as opposed to ideological religious zealotry.

What you're trying to imply is that people can't be Christian and believe in science. What is that logic?  

Faith is all about picking and choosing the parts that you relate to. People believe in religion for different reasons. Don't cast them all with the same brush.

Modern Christians more or less follow the paths of the New Testament rather than the Old. In fact that's exactly what separates Christians from Jews in both theory and practice.

Never implied that and you're reeaaching...

[Whispering 18,865]

46 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

Christianity is defined as someone who believes in the Old and New Testaments. You cannot just ignore the Old Testaments. Every single Christian believes in the Ten Commandments, a story in the Old Testament. 

Sorry, but you cannot just pick and chose the lines you want. Christianity endorses the murder of gay people, as does Islam and Judaism, and they all also endorse slavery.

But there is something about Islamic people that they think they can literally interpret this line in 2016. Christianity and Judaism do not have this problem. So lets objectively look at this. The problem does seem to be stemming from the followers of Islam.

Christians believe that the Old Testament and New Testament are both the inspired word of God. However, they believe that when Jesus came, he fulfilled the prophecy of the Old Testament and ushered in the new laws with his death. Jesus freed the church from the laws and rituals of the Old Testament....laws such as the Sabbath, abstaining from meats, circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc. are all dead through Jesus. His resurrection was a new start under new laws for all people....that is what Christians believe. 

 

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

23 minutes ago, MJHolland said:

I dare you to find a modern translation of Lev 20:13 that doesn't say gays should be put to death.

Yet Christians rarely carry out hate crimes against gays because of it, and no Christian nation gives the death penalty for homosexuality. So why do so many Muslims?

Never implied that and you're reeaaching...

Well that's the point. It's the interpretations that are sketchy, not the actual religion itself.

I actually remember that passage in Arabic and it referred to them as heathens as opposed to homosexuals, further empowering the interpretation that it's about cults not homosexuality.

Muslims have  only become very aggressive about it due to the rise of fundamentalism and the resistance to what they perceive as Western influence. 

Regarding your last bit, you said that you cannot be a Christian and pick and choose the parts you follow. I said that it makes no sense because many of the Old Testament texts are clearly not followed. No rational person believes the Earth is 5000 years old. This doesn't mean they don't believe in the message of Jesus. They follow the New Testament that replaced the Old, but still use the Old as historical and theological context.

My mom does. I do too to some degree. It's why I consider myself a Christian despite my agnostic leanings. I admit that Christianity has had a tangible impact on my life, for more good than ill really.

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

15 minutes ago, Whispering said:

Christians believe that the Old Testament and New Testament are both the inspired word of God. However, they believe that when Jesus came, he fulfilled the prophecy of the Old Testament and ushered in the new laws with his death. Jesus freed the church from the laws and rituals of the Old Testament....laws such as the Sabbath, abstaining from meats, circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc. are all dead through Jesus. His resurrection was a new start under new laws for all people....that is what Christians believe. 

 

Thanks for putting it in better words than I did.

Although ... there is one bit you mentioned that Middle Eastern Christians still follow 

 

[Luc 4,776]

4 hours ago, tizian said:

Not the religion... the people who misuse it for their disturbing beliefs. it's just pretense. 
 

Obviously religion is the inspiration for this. It's not incorrect to blame islam. Doesn't mean that all muslims adhere to the beliefs that we consider as bad, though.

4 hours ago, Ibo said:

It's true that more Muslims commit hate crimes than others, but that is, as I already said in my OP, because of where they live.

Muslims in the West don't go around killing gay people, it's the ones in countries where people aren't educated and have no one to tell them that being different is not a bad thing. 

A lot of children in Bangladesh don't even attend elementary school because of the low wages within the country. They can't afford going to school when their parents need help at home. It's not Islam that is making them kill gay people, it's a lot of things combined. One of them being the lack of education and the poor state of the country.

Also, I have yet to see exact lines that say "kill men who lay with men" in any holy book. Religion does play a role in all of this, I am not denying that, but it's not the one thing that motivates them to commit such horrible crimes (see UAE; they're not living by the Quran, but behaving the same way).

Muslims in West-European countries overwhelmingly oppose homosexuality. Same for muslims in other rich nations such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE... While homophobic muslims do not kill homosexuals here in the West, many muslims do commit hate crimes against jews and gays (including physical attacks). Let's just say that it's not recommended to walk on the street holding hands in the districts where the minority make a majority.

[Luc 4,776]

3 hours ago, MJHolland said:

The punishment for homosexual acts in Sharia Law, which is blatantly stated in the Quran, is death.

In the Old Testament American Standard Version, Leviticus 20:13 says "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Both the Bible and the Quran tell people to murder gays. On religion is certainly not superior to other inherently in this case, but we no not observe nations of Christian fundamentalists blatantly murdered gay people like in Saudi Arabia.

It's interesting. You say it has to do with location, and for the most part I agree with you. However, there are extremely poor Christian nations (made up of extremely fundamental and conservative Christians) in eastern Europe who I don't think anyone would consider developed nations, and not a single one of these nations has homosexuality outlawed today.

Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, is one of the richest nations on Earth, especially in GDP per capita. The punishment for homosexuality in this country is death. If you're lucky, you'll be brutally tortured and then spend the rest of your life in prison.

While there is certainly a socio-economic link to acceptance of the LGBT community, religion does have an impact and it seems like Islam is extremely problematic for the LGBT community. We shouldn't ignore this and make excuses.

It has to be known that legalizing homosexuality is a prerequisite for joining the EU. It's not out of free will that overwhelmingly homophobic nations such as Ukraine have legalized homosexuality. In fact, many East-European countries are more homophobic than Mother Russia itself (again, a rich, Christian nation). It is also wrong to think that East-European countries are 'extremely poor'. On the contrary; East-European countries are now relatively rich compared to other parts of the world. Only certain parts are still very (albeit not extremely) poor (Moldova, Macedonia, parts of Ukraine).

Additionally, countries in Africa which often have a Christian majority, very often have strict laws forbidding homosexuality, some even give corporal punishment.

You can see that islam does correlate with extremely strict homophobic laws (corporal punishment), while Christian-majority countries at least do not give death sentence to homosexuals.

[SKANK 14,288]

Following the savage murder of a prominent Queer activist, it's galling that a Liberal feels the need to defend the very belief system which explicitly called for that activist's death. Mannan's lopped limbs prompts only a sigh, while the condemnation of Islam requires paragraphs of rebuttal. The new Left ladies and gentlemen.

Rest in peace brave beautiful Julhas Mannan.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, MJHolland said:

The punishment for homosexual acts in Sharia Law, which is blatantly stated in the Quran, is death.

In the Old Testament American Standard Version, Leviticus 20:13 says "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Both the Bible and the Quran tell people to murder gays. On religion is certainly not superior to other inherently in this case, but we no not observe nations of Christian fundamentalists blatantly murdered gay people like in Saudi Arabia.

It's interesting. You say it has to do with location, and for the most part I agree with you. However, there are extremely poor Christian nations (made up of extremely fundamental and conservative Christians) in eastern Europe who I don't think anyone would consider developed nations, and not a single one of these nations has homosexuality outlawed today.

Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, is one of the richest nations on Earth, especially in GDP per capita. The punishment for homosexuality in this country is death. If you're lucky, you'll be brutally tortured and then spend the rest of your life in prison.

While there is certainly a socio-economic link to acceptance of the LGBT community, religion does have an impact and it seems like Islam is extremely problematic for the LGBT community. We shouldn't ignore this and make excuses.

Who is making excuses? I'm certainly not. Most religions are indeed homophobic (amongst other things) and they should be condemned for that very reason. I truly believe that the world would be better off without them (e.g. complete separation of faith and state), both socially and economically.

However, the part that I don't agree with is saying that it's all because of Islam when the human brain isn't black and white. I do think it's rather sad that the correlation between Islam and homophobia is higher than with other beliefs, but in most cases it really is because of cultural differneces.

If you think otherwise I highly recommend you to read Islamic literature from 800 to 1800. Homosexuality wasn't something that you were punished for or charged with. Gay people were accepted and an undeniable part of society. Islamic poems discuss homosexuality in a tolerant way (though the same can't be said about the Quran). It wasn't until after colonization that homophobia became the norm and punishable by law. Before that no one interpreted verses from the Quran in a homophobic way. Several historians and theologians believe that that very verse (surah 4, verse 13) talks about cheating on your partner in general, but because the woman in the example cheated on her husband with a woman people suddenly started interpreting it in a homophobic way. Not saying that I agree that cheaters should be punished or even executed, but to say that the Quran demands death of gay people is just incorrect. 

56 minutes ago, Luc said:

Obviously religion is the inspiration for this. It's not incorrect to blame islam. Doesn't mean that all muslims adhere to the beliefs that we consider as bad, though.

Muslims in West-European countries overwhelmingly oppose homosexuality. Same for muslims in other rich nations such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE... While homophobic muslims do not kill homosexuals here in the West, many muslims do commit hate crimes against jews and gays (including physical attacks). Let's just say that it's not recommended to walk on the street holding hands in the districts where the minority make a majority.

Been there, done that. Many times. I only got harassed once - three times less than holding hands at the mall where there are little to no Muslims. The fact that districts that are dominantly Muslim are poor only proves my point; lack of proper education (both academically and socially) is why they don't question the homophobia that is being passed down from generation to generation. 

I already said everything regarding religion in my second reply to MJHolland, so if you want to know where I'm coming from please just read it.

Still, I would like to add that Islam is not the root of homophobia. Muslims were known to be tolerant of same sex relationships for centuries (800-1800) and many Islamic poems discuss homosexuality in a rather erotic manner. Before 1979 not a single person was legally charged for being gay or engaging in sexual intercourse with someone of the same sex. It wasn't until after colonialism that the Muslims in charge decided to make homosexuality illegal and justify their homophobia with religion. 

[Luc 4,776]

8 hours ago, Ibo said:

Who is making excuses? I'm certainly not. Most religions are indeed homophobic (amongst other things) and they should be condemned for that very reason. I truly believe that the world would be better off without them (e.g. complete separation of faith and state), both socially and economically.

However, the part that I don't agree with is saying that it's all because of Islam when the human brain isn't black and white. I do think it's rather sad that the correlation between Islam and homophobia is higher than with other beliefs, but in most cases it really is because of cultural differneces.

If you think otherwise I highly recommend you to read Islamic literature from 800 to 1800. Homosexuality wasn't something that you were punished for or charged with. Gay people were accepted and an undeniable part of society. Islamic poems discuss homosexuality in a tolerant way (though the same can't be said about the Quran). It wasn't until after colonization that homophobia became the norm and punishable by law. Before that no one interpreted verses from the Quran in a homophobic way. Several historians and theologians believe that that very verse (surah 4, verse 13) talks about cheating on your partner in general, but because the woman in the example cheated on her husband with a woman people suddenly started interpreting it in a homophobic way. Not saying that I agree that cheaters should be punished or even executed, but to say that the Quran demands death of gay people is just incorrect. 

Been there, done that. Many times. I only got harassed once - three times less than holding hands at the mall where there are little to no Muslims. The fact that districts that are dominantly Muslim are poor only proves my point; lack of proper education (both academically and socially) is why they don't question the homophobia that is being passed down from generation to generation. 

I already said everything regarding religion in my second reply to MJHolland, so if you want to know where I'm coming from please just read it.

Still, I would like to add that Islam is not the root of homophobia. Muslims were known to be tolerant of same sex relationships for centuries (800-1800) and many Islamic poems discuss homosexuality in a rather erotic manner. Before 1979 not a single person was legally charged for being gay or engaging in sexual intercourse with someone of the same sex. It wasn't until after colonialism that the Muslims in charge decided to make homosexuality illegal and justify their homophobia with religion. 

I used to think education and a gay-friendly, progressive milieu would automatically make all muslims go along with it. The opposite is true. I go to a good school (one of the best in the region), and muslims form a small minority here (like 10%). I thought, considering I had come out of the closet already without problems, that there were no homophobes. It came as a real shock when I got to know that some muslims (in my own grade!) support killing all jews and gays, think homosexuality is a Western disease (caused by prosperity) and that zionists control the world. There are some more liberal muslims, but only few would approve of their son being gay, and I know only one who would accept a transgender son/daughter. Biphobia is also (even more than homophobia) prevalent.