Emails Show Hillary Clinton Aides Celebrating F-15 Sales to Saudi Arabia

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

2 minutes ago, Whispering said:

I don't know if he is going to get in that position, so he will always be thought of as Saint Bernie. But you are 100 per cent correct, if he starts to look like a viable threat, they will come at him with a smear campaign that looks like a Tidal wave. They will have to, because they will be coming in late. I can gaurantees they already have the information and campaign set in place, they just haven't pushed the button yet. 

They won't just yet. They don't want to keep everyone's focus on Hilary for now. 

[Voltaire 4,531]

Just now, LebaneseDude said:

It's important to employ integrity and character with people. The thing is, politics and nations aren't people. They're constructs, and their representatives are expected to operate in specific ways to benefit these constructs.

It seems you can't differentiate between the two situations.

Politics doesn't affect people? That's an incredible amount of dissonance. C'mon man, you can't possibly think they're all playing a game that doesn't affect real actual people? It isn't a victim-less game at all! When Saudi Arabia gets armaments, they use them to kill humans. They're not putting them on a shelf somewhere.

When we support nations like Saudi Arabia, it matters. It matters a lot and to a lot of people.

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

Just now, Voltaire said:

Politics doesn't affect people? That's an incredible amount of dissonance. C'mon man, you can't possibly think they're all playing a game that doesn't affect real actual people? It isn't a victim-less game at all! When Saudi Arabia gets armaments, they use them to kill humans. They're not putting them on a shelf somewhere.

When we support nations like Saudi Arabia, it matters. It matters a lot and to a lot of people.

I never said it doesn't affect people, but ultimately the sad truth is that every nation is looking out for its own people (or coalition) first and foremost. 

[Voltaire 4,531]

Just now, LebaneseDude said:

I never said it doesn't affect people, but ultimately the sad truth is that every nation is looking out for its own people first and foremost. 

I'm not sure what you're saying to be honest.

I'm here saying a simple thing: selling armaments to Saudi Arabia is unacceptable.

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

Just now, Voltaire said:

I'm not sure what you're saying to be honest.

I'm here saying a simple thing: selling armaments to Saudi Arabia is unacceptable.

Do we know what the USA got in return? 

It could be something(s) that the USA deemed of higher priority.

Also I'm not sure if you noticed but the USA and SA aren't exactly enemies.

 

[pie-kun 1,765]

Bernie supporters are SO salty about Hillary. I cannot wait to see the meltdowns on Tuesday.

[Voltaire 4,531]

2 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

Do we know what the USA got in return?

We know at least that Hillary received a contribution to her foundation. We know that Boeing received the money-end of a major deal.

Are you suggesting that there is a good reason to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia? That there was some sort of national security issue that was placated by the handing over of weapons to that nation? What sort of situation are you imagining that would be benefited in both the short term and long term by arming Saudi Arabia with world-class weaponry?

I'm interested in knowing for what you think we should sacrifice our principles.

[Alcina Dimitrescu 1,157]

16 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

Do we know what the USA got in return? 

It could be something(s) that the USA deemed of higher priority.

Perhaps it could be, but right now it seems all she did was getting Boeing a great bussiness deal and getting herself some nice donations. I'd be more than pleased if can find something else to make her #evilsofdiplomacy worth it lol.

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

31 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

We know at least that Hillary received a contribution to her foundation. We know that Boeing received the money-end of a major deal.

Are you suggesting that there is a good reason to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia? That there was some sort of national security issue that was placated by the handing over of weapons to that nation? What sort of situation are you imagining that would be benefited in both the short term and long term by arming Saudi Arabia with world-class weaponry?

I'm interested in knowing for what you think we should sacrifice our principles.

You continue to oversimplify the situation as if these transactions are done in isolation.

You do realize that Saudi Arabia is the only thing keeping Iran in check in the Middle East right? One can say the opposite regarding Iran's role is true. 

I ****ing hate it as a Lebanese person. Lebanon is a literal battleground between Iran and Saudi Arabia, or more broadly, Shiite and Sunni Muslims. The ISIS situation is something that both countries are attempting to exploit for their own benefit. That's why they haven't gone on the offensive yet. The USA tries to help us how it can, but there's nothing it can do about it. All it can do is ensure that the balance of power is preserved. .

Perhaps the USA is giving SA weapons in order to keep the balance of power in check. You do realize that SA has one of the biggest militaries in the world right? There was probably some exchange we don't know about.

So you have Saudi Arabia giving weapons to various Sunni coalitions and Iran giving weapons to various Shiite ones.

What about the principles regarding the preservation of peace, no matter what?

What about those principles? What about the lives of all the Christians in Lebanon who depend on the USA doing these shady deals to keep them out of harm's way?

I'm oversimplifying, but the point remains. At some point your principles conflict with each other. Not helping SA ends up helping Iran. What do you in that case? Nothing? 

Making these proclamations of integrity in vacuum is easy.

In practice, nothing is.

[Ziggy 14,042]

2 hours ago, manicholic said:

Can't with this perpetual never-ending anti-Hillary bias in the media

The "anti-Hillary bias" is only in alternative news sources. Seriously, if you read the mainstream news (New York Times, CNN, etc.) you would think she shits gold and gives it to the poor. Exclude Fox from this argument because they aren't liberal news and despise her.

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

12 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

Perhaps it could be, but right now it seems all she did was getting Boeing a great bussiness deal and getting herself some nice donations. I'd be more than pleased if can find something else to make her #evilsofdiplomacy worth it lol.

"seems" is the key word.

These deals are rarely simple, and often involve a long process of exchanges and concessions.

What you're reporting is most likely nothing more than a few cherries on top.

[Voltaire 4,531]

1 hour ago, LebaneseDude said:

You continue to oversimplify the situation as if these transactions are done in isolation.

You do realize that Saudi Arabia is the only thing keeping Iran in check in the Middle East right? One can say the opposite regarding Iran's role is true. 

I ****ing hate it as a Lebanese person. Lebanon is a literal battleground between Iran and Saudi Arabia, or more broadly, Shiite and Sunni Muslims. The ISIS situation is something that both countries are attempting to exploit for their own benefit. That's why they haven't gone on the offensive yet. The USA tries to help us how it can, but there's nothing it can do about it. All it can do is ensure that the balance of power is preserved. .

Perhaps the USA is giving SA weapons in order to keep the balance of power in check. You do realize that SA has one of the biggest militaries in the world right? There was probably some exchange we don't know about.

So you have Saudi Arabia giving weapons to various Sunni coalitions and Iran giving weapons to various Shiite ones.

What about the principles regarding the preservation of peace, no matter what?

What about those principles? What about the lives of all the Christians in Lebanon who depend on the USA doing these shady deals to keep them out of harm's way?

I'm oversimplifying, but the point remains. At some point your principles conflict with each other. Not helping SA ends up helping Iran. What do you in that case? Nothing? 

Making these proclamations of integrity in vacuum is easy.

In practice, nothing is.

Perhaps if that was true, it could impact the story in a positive way. The problem is that there is absolutely no proof for that scenario. Just a blind sort of faith in "I'm sure she'd only do something shitty to save everyone and the world".

The thing that I enjoy about a discussion like this, is ultimately we find the similarities in what we both want- even if its clouded by our disagreements.

I think at the end of the day, we want whats better for real people living real lives- but just have a differing opinion on how that's accomplished, what can and cannot be compromised, and with whom the power should be given to call those shots.

Thanks for the discussion.

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

4 hours ago, ShockPop said:

The rest of the world already knew. Just like we know Bush sold weapons to Isis.

How can Bush possibly sell weapons to ISIS ? Where is evidence ? 

Also US-Saudi alliance is nothing new or negative. Diplomatic alliances involve many interests,do not be naive. Saudi Arabia is a very important country ! 

[Alcina Dimitrescu 1,157]

4 hours ago, LebaneseDude said:

"seems" is the key word.

These deals are rarely simple, and often involve a long process of exchanges and concessions.

What you're reporting is most likely nothing more than a few cherries on top.

Yes, "seems". We'll only know for sure if he means his words if he becomes president, however his past behavior is consistent with his words. Meanwhile we have Hillary, who seems unable to keep the same opinion in spam of a week, has videotaped evidence of her lying, and whose latest achievement is managing over 99% of her state job in an illegal-ish private server.

Indeed, they arent, but you still havent found me anything that justified selling a country with a long string of crimes against humanity war weapons. When you find that "something" which USA so sorely needed and the ONLY nation who had it and was willing to negotiate was Saudi Arabi, to the point of selling anything they wanted (in this case, war weapons) I'll recede my point, but until then all we have are piles of dead yemenites killed with weapons she got sold and no indication she did it for anything else than donations to her fundraiser.

Great news indeed

 

[Bt1 5,213]

20 hours ago, Voltaire said:

I am thinking for myself. And here is what I think: I do not support weapons sales to Saudi Arabia. I do not support the acceptance of money in the form of "thank you's" for cooperation with Saudi Arabia.

I think those are two very sane stances to hold but f*ck me for thinking that we can do better than the selling of weapons to a human-rights nightmare. F*ck me for thinking that money-greased politics with such players is part of why the world continues to find itself in incomprehensible situations.

No matter the president, US wont turn its back to its best partner in the region.