The -now lost- Political Gaga + her Radical Art

[lego 44,165]

7 minutes ago, Nervous Unicorn said:

omg people are finally saying it 

i was livid when all of that happened with Israel. and when she did the EU games. it all felt wrong and left a bad taste in my mouth.

i still remember when she said she wasn't a feminist. 

and also, for someone who is all about stopping injustice and inequality she sure is quiet about things like Ferguson and Baltimore or Tamir Rice where there's a disgusting amount of injustice happening. 

here's the issue: for Gaga wanting to be such a radical free spirit, she picks really safe issues to talk about/comment on, which would be fine, except she's made it a point that she wants to be known as a radical. 

 

idk I guess it makes sense if she's supporting that robot Hillary and not my bae Bernie 

 

I think she's easily influenced by her friends and doesn't do enough research on her own.

She became friends with Clintons during BTW era, so now she's supporting Hillary.

She has friends in White House with ties to Israel so she sees only one side and gives comments based on what they tell her.

It's either that or they bought her, like in case of Azerbaijan. 

 

[Didymus 34,380]

9 minutes ago, Nervous Unicorn said:

and also, for someone who is all about stopping injustice and inequality she sure is quiet about things like Ferguson and Baltimore or Tamir Rice where there's a disgusting amount of injustice happening.

I didn't even think of that, but you're right.. I really think it's because these problems are a bit more complex and it's easy to say something that can be misinterpreted. Though that doesn't exactly explain why she supported the European Games and not the Olympics, since that seems to be a very straightforward issue

11 minutes ago, Nervous Unicorn said:

here's the issue: for Gaga wanting to be such a radical free spirit, she picks really safe issues to talk about/comment on, which would be fine, except she's made it a point that she wants to be known as a radical. 

That's my point of view as well, though I probably say it too dramatically and with too much emotion It really comes down to that for me too.

[StarstruckIllusion 52,916]

6 minutes ago, Nervous Unicorn said:

omg people are finally saying it 

i was livid when all of that happened with Israel. and when she did the EU games. it all felt wrong and left a bad taste in my mouth.

i still remember when she said she wasn't a feminist. 

and also, for someone who is all about stopping injustice and inequality she sure is quiet about things like Ferguson and Baltimore or Tamir Rice where there's a disgusting amount of injustice happening. 

here's the issue: for Gaga wanting to be such a radical free spirit, she picks really safe issues to talk about/comment on, which would be fine, except she's made it a point that she wants to be known as a radical. 

 

idk I guess it makes sense if she's supporting that robot Hillary and not my bae Bernie 

Maybe that bad taste was from the messy idea that she performed there for any other reason other than to perform there. I remember when she said she was not a feminist too. Hmm, a democratic woman who has a chance at US presidency that Gaga is standing behind-wow she's such a fake feminist. 

 

 Then she changed her way and wrote songs like Scheiße, because you know, it's possible to change your views. She is someone for stopping inequality and injustice for gays first. If she takes about every single case of inequality as y'all want her too, y'all would actually have a lot more points against her in this thread other than the 5 y'all do. 

Yall have Gaga so twisted 

be blessed she actually used her massive platform and tried to preach about some inequalities, like some of your side faves have yet to do. I am. 

[DrewStevens 5,249]

20 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Ok, but not everyone claims to be a political activist who wants to combat injustice, inequality and oppression while empowering youth, minorities and basically everyone else.. If I publicly stated the things Gaga did, I'd be ****ing HAPPY if someone would point out contradictions and double standards in my behavior because I would want to do the best job I could. Just ignoring double standards (esp. when you're talking about equality ) is lazy. You don't just need to accept that humans are fallible. What about trying to minimize fallibility?

And I don't think you read the OP well either. It's not about what ARTPOP lacked, it's about Gaga (and I'm not speaking for me here, only for the OP) letting go of her radical and political sublayer in her work because of fan and industry pressure. The OP wants a political revolutionary character to come back into the frame in the future. So discussing her political aims/moves/statements is actually perfectly on-topic. We're examining how radical she actually was/is and if she should even try to be political, that's not the same as insulting her.

You can examine her behavior without calling her a "dumb American bimbo who doesn't even try to educate herself about global issues". If that's not an insult I don't know what it is.

Yes, she has called herself and activist but so do everyone who discusses and fights about justice on the Internet including us and a lot of other people on this forum because this is the new kind of activism.

I totally understand the point of the OP and what the OP said is that ARTPOP as an era lacked of this political side of Gaga which I addressed in my first post. I don't think it's wrong to analyze and disagree with her political beliefs and social behavior, but calling her out as a person who is ignorant and stupid is quite uncalled for.

I don't agree with a lot of the things she has done but honestly being a successful  international superstar and being and 100% congruent activist is impossible. If she really had to respect her statement of not supporting nations that have bad politics then she would only be able to perform in two or three countries. 

[Didymus 34,380]

8 minutes ago, DrewStevens said:

You can examine her behavior without calling her a "dumb American bimbo who doesn't even try to educate herself about global issues". If that's not an insult I don't know what it is.

Yes, she has called herself and activist but so do everyone who discusses and fights about justice on the Internet including us and a lot of other people on this forum because this is the new kind of activism.

I totally understand the point of the OP and what the OP said is that ARTPOP as an era lacked of this political side of Gaga which I addressed in my first post. I don't think it's wrong to analyze and disagree with her political beliefs and social behavior, but calling her out as a person who is ignorant and stupid is quite uncalled for.

I don't agree with a lot of the things she has done but honestly being a successful  international superstar and being and 100% congruent activist is impossible. If she really had to respect her statement of not supporting nations that have bad politics then she would only be able to perform in two or three countries. 

Well, that's an insult, but you can't zoom in on the insult without taking into account what the insult is for When she's calling for a boycott of Russia in the midst of an anti-Russia media wave while ignoring gay rights issues in other countries, yes, I do think she's being a dumb American bimbo who doesn't even try to educate herself about global (gay rights) issues. Does that define her as a person? No and I never said it did.

I agree with the last thing, actually. But we draw different conclusions: you say her contradictory behavior is defendable because her ideals were unrealistic, I say: then don't pretend to embody those ideals in the first place.. Let your actions talk instead of talking and then inevitably contradicting yourself later, either by doing something contrary to what you said or doing nothing at all after the public applauded you for supposedly spreading awareness.

Anyway, we're probably not gonna agree. I just don't think it was accurate to say that this thread derailed into an anti-Gaga one. The people who are really involved in the discussions are all posting in much detail and bringing up a perfectly acceptable amount of evidence in support of their points. It seems to me that the people who are complaining are actually the ones with the weakest posts that use the most unconvincing arguments  

[JackTheTripper 866]

Once you are being branded as worlds most famous celebrity, and world most paid pop star- you are unofficially banned from calling yourself punk.   as much as i like punk, ai dont want her  in that venture, beacuse she will just be a poser. just no 

[JackTheTripper 866]

4 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Let your actions talk instead of talking and then inevitably contradicting yourself later, either by doing something contrary to what you said or doing nothing at all after the public applauded you for supposedly spreading awareness.

 

this is what we should take away from this discussion, i hop Gaga sees this, and apply this in her future efforts, beacuse then she will be more respected, and praised (and i now you all want that)

[StarstruckIllusion 52,916]

35 minutes ago, Didymus said:

I don't think you're being very fair here - I doubt Gaga would appreciate being stamped as a gay rights activist. If she didn't like being called a gay icon, I don't think she would like for people to forget all the social issues she tried to address in favor of only highlighting the most obvious one (and even that one isn't unproblematic: see the discussion about her selectivity for gay rights specifically, comparing Russia with Azerbaijan).

I don't see when/how she stopped presenting herself as a "world activist" either. This year she has stated that she wants to be more politically active and is actively thinking about how she can use her voice and platform for the better of society. Her recent interview for Billboard Magazine also showed no sign of her playing down her activist urges, nor did her support for The Hunting Ground and her opening up about depression and sexual abuse of females in the music industry.

As far as the "reaches" you're referring to: I think everyone is referring to very specific statements Gaga has made. And even if we're stressing her political side a bit too much here, I think that's more agreeable than pretending 50% of her statements about social and political issues don't exist (which you seem to be doing..).

nonononono. no. That gay icon part was simply Gaga being real, humble and nothing else-because she knows an icon is someone who has been around and prevalent for decades and has done way more than a fraction that she has in her short career so far. You see some girls easy come and easy go... 

Gaga knew risking her career for the gays would not be okay for the GP, she said something to he effect of "this era will bring out my true fans", and so it has-she lost so many fans during that era, because "she became too preachy." She even lost a-would-be-iconic tour, even way before the BTW era, w/ Kanye West over "her gayness". Therefore I totally disagree with her not wanting to be seen as a gay right activist-no way-she's risked and lost, and now people are finally (and thankfully) starting to see how she was right.

Also another point, she is trying to be more of an activist lately, which is awesome, but all the points made here are before Emotion Revolution and TIHTY. This can also be a applied to another response where someone messily brought up how she used to not be a feminist. Not trying to delete these valid points because they happened a while ago… but she is showing that she is trying to change w/ the baby step of the Emotion Revolution so I'm willing to delete that past  

I also am not hard pressed for an apology in the Isreal case or any others, because so much celebrities put out false sorrys and statements, there are so many who will twist it up to beyond making the effort even worth it. It's just better for her to learn her mistakes and not do them again, and not tell everyone she has learned-from now on, which is way better imo.

she's still a gay rights activist first tho, so I don't hold her to such a high standard on other issues like many on this thread do, because again-no one takes activists who bite off more than they can chew seriously (which is kinda what has happened here). If she royally ****s the gay support up tho, I will be on the front lines tagging and dragging her 

[DrewStevens 5,249]

 

3 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Well, that's an insult, but you can't zoom in on the insult without taking into account what the insult is for When she's calling for a boycott of Russia in the midst of an anti-Russia media wave while ignoring gay rights issues in other countries, yes, I do think she's being a dumb American bimbo who doesn't even try to educate herself about global (gay rights) issues. Does that define her as a person? No and I never said it did.

I agree with the last thing, actually. But we draw different conclusions: you say her contradictory behavior is defendable because her ideals were unrealistic, I say: then don't pretend to embody those ideals in the first place.. Let your actions talk instead of talking and then inevitably contradicting yourself later, either by doing something contrary to what you said or doing nothing at all after the public applauded you for supposedly spreading awareness.

Anyway, we're probably not gonna agree. I just don't think it was accurate to say that this thread derailed into an anti-Gaga one. The people who are really involved in the discussions are all posting in much detail and bringing up a perfectly acceptable amount of evidence in support of their points. It seems to me that the people who are complaining are actually the ones with the weakest posts that use the most unconvincing arguments  

Well the insult was still uncalled for. You don't know her and you are judging her intelligence based on what you believe is right to do. Which pop star is not a dumb bimbo according to your standards? Madonna and Cher both have call themselves LGBT activists and they both have performed plenty of times in countries where LGBT rights are not even a thing. 

And yes, we are probably not going to agree at the end because I don't think anyone can dictate what's the right thing to do. I'm not going to judge her for contradicting herself and make a big deal about it when I know that I contradict myself about many stuff too. 

[Didymus 34,380]

18 minutes ago, ROARyals said:

Also another point, she is trying to be more of an activist lately, which is awesome, but all the points made here are before Emotion Revolution and TIHTY. This can also be a applied to another response where someone messily brought up how she used to not be a feminist. Not trying to delete these valid points because they happened a while ago… but she is showing that she is trying to change w/ the baby step of the Emotion Revolution so I'm willing to delete that past  

Well, why do you see the Emotion Revolution talk as such a babystep/milestone? Why shouldn't anything before it count anymore, I don't understand that..

Anyway, I actually don't disagree with the rest of your post. You're probably right about the gay icon thing and I agree that celebrities showing "support" for political issues is absolutely retarded (cue Selena talking about Palestine as if she ever even read the Wiki page of the conflict).

I don't really agree with your example of the Fame Kills tour being cancelled because Kanye thought it was "too gay" (if that's what you're implying anyway). She made statements about how she wanted the show itself to be "gay" (whatever the hell that meant) but as far as I can see, there's no reason to believe Kanye had a problem with that.

I also don't think the BTW era was thàt challenging for the audience, as I already said here. Her support against DIDT was in 2010, not in 2011/12. I think people here have a very skewed vision of what the BTW era was about, as if she only started to talk about gay rights in 2011 or something. Wildly untrue and your own example of the Fame Kills Tour is a perfect illustration of that. I don't think her being too "preachy" had anything to do with it either since her only preachy song on the album was her biggest era success, she talked more about how much she loved her fans than about equality etc. (which she had already talked about non-stop since she started out) and she was already criticized for preaching during her MB 2.0 tour.

I personally can't see the "she became too radical for her audience" idea that explains BTW's failure in terms of commercial expansion as anything but an excuse for that exact same failure. Anyway, I already gave my version of what I think happened, so I won't repeat that here.

[Didymus 34,380]

12 minutes ago, DrewStevens said:

Well the insult was still uncalled for. You don't know her and you are judging her intelligence based on what you believe is right to do. Which pop star is not a dumb bimbo according to your standards? Madonna and Cher both have call themselves LGBT activists and they both have performed plenty of times in countries where LGBT rights are not even a thing. 

And yes, we are probably not going to agree at the end because I don't think anyone can dictate what's the right thing to do. I'm not going to judge her for contradicting herself and make a big deal about it when I know that I contradict myself about many stuff too. 

I'm not dictating anything. And I'm not judging her for contradicting herself either, nor am I pretending I never do that myself I'm talking about what annoys me and I have repeated multiple times (exactly for people like you who are just waiting to jump on something to be able to push all the valid points aside - not saying I'm necessarily right, just saying I am bringing good points to back up my opinion, and I know it's nothing more than an opinion) that the only thing that annoys me is giving Gaga wrong credentials.

[Harry 26,836]

Omg, an actual conversation is happening, on GGD I can't believe what I'm reading

[Mr Judas 4,106]

I'll can say this, her whole 'ARTPOP' era was messy cuz she wanted to show the world the demise of a pop star.

Shes coming back big with LG5 to steal the effing mega thunder from the GP.

[Alex C 254]

I'm sorry I left, I took a nap 

I would like to add a point that noone has mentioned yet.

According to many critical thinkers (including 3rd wave feminists), "The personal IS political". Everyone is a political person, even by being silent. Which is the worst way to consent to the uglyness happening everywhere.

And that's what I wanted to adress: Since everything we do and say IS political, and since she DID show even Michele Fouceaultian influences in her late TFM and early BTW artistry, the question is...

Was it the management issue?

Maybe the previous team was indeed the perfect storm and now the people around her are not challenging her?

I repeat: I am from Europe, I shouldn't be guessing how an American treats "politics", but I am certain that in this part of my world, pretty much everything you do/say, even your aesthetics (arguably for some THE most political thing of yourself) are Activism.

And she stayed Silenced during ARTPOP, which -for many critical tought followers- is the worst case of consent.

But I am just wanting to have a nice convo here - not to be harsh on her; let's not forget her depressed state during ARTPOP. But, coming from me, a person with a thousand diagnoses of the DSM, I can assure u that the more crazy you are, the more radical your artistry becomes.

[Didymus 34,380]

4 minutes ago, Alex C said:

And she stayed Silenced during ARTPOP, which -for many critical tought followers- is the worst case of consent.

She did call for the Russia boycott in this era, twice during the same year.