djBuffoon 12,115 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 1 hour ago, Benji said: It's okay! I would have replied earlier but timezones and the update got in the way smh I don't think you're understanding my point though. I'm asking you what makes these songs "better" than her previous? I mean Gaga's addressed so much on her previous albums, with more depth, stronger lyrics and just generally a more interesting approach than the songs on ARTPOP. Well you'll never hear it if you don't want to. I personally feel like most of the album belongs in 2012, and even then, that doesn't excuse the drop in lyrical quality. Really? There was a thread just a few weeks ago declaring how adventurous and experimental it was for her to do? I agree with you on Born This Way, it is her most "out-there" album. Mmmm, I know your opinion won't budge which is fair, I just personally don't see how we can place it above her previous. It's diverse and unusual for a pop album, but it's the least diverse and unusual in terms of Gaga's albums. So far, I think I've been tracking your arguments accurately and fairly. If you want to know why I think the songs are better, that wasn't clear to me at all. And it's not really something I can state clearer than I have since the album was released. I connect with the theme more, I feel like the music is on par with Born This Way and, compositionally, more expansive and impressive than her first two (although those also have gems on them too). That's really the best I can do without going into excruciating detail. Adventurous? Yes, and Gaga has always been adventurous. Experimental? No, and Gaga hasn't (to my ears) ever been experimental. Well you'll never hear it if you don't want to. I mean, this goes both ways my dear, does it not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji 20,113 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 1 minute ago, djBuffoon said: So far, I think I've been tracking your arguments accurately and fairly. If you want to know why I think the songs are better, that wasn't clear to me at all. And it's not really something I can state clearer than I have since the album was released. I connect with the theme more, I feel like the music is on par with Born This Way and, compositionally, more expansive and impressive than her first two (although those also have gems on them too). That's really the best I can do without going into excruciating detail. Adventurous? Yes, and Gaga has always been adventurous. Experimental? No, and Gaga hasn't (to my ears) ever been experimental. Well you'll never hear it if you don't want to. I mean, this goes both ways my dear, does it not? Well my first post was pretty much insinuating that it's no better than her previous releases, but that must not have been clear. That's fair, I personally don't hear that, but I suppose that's the beauty of music and one's taste and opinion. I wasn't referring to the genre "experimental" ... but more the idea that she would try new things that her peers wouldn't and experiment with her sound. It could, but I'm not trying to discredit a Gaga album and trying to find the similarities, I can just simply hear the sounds present on it and identify that there were similar sounds being produced around that time and the year before. I'l never try to tell someone it can't be their favourite album, that's not my prerogative. I do want to question why they believe it excels in something that another one of her albums don't however. I mean you suggest that all of The Fame Monster could have been singles but why? What songs around that time of release sound like The Fame Monster? I can't recall anything sounding like Bad Romance except for it using the same blueprint of Poker Face for success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djBuffoon 12,115 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 2 minutes ago, Benji said: I'l never try to tell someone it can't be their favourite album, that's not my prerogative. I do want to question why they believe it excels in something that another one of her albums don't however. I mean you suggest that all of The Fame Monster could have been singles but why? What songs around that time of release sound like The Fame Monster? I can't recall anything sounding like Bad Romance except for it using the same blueprint of Poker Face for success. Yes, and this is not meant to be negative. "Bad Romance" was easily the most outré song on the album. Most of the other tracks are pretty great in their own way, but after that lead single, the other ones come off a bit more familiar. Even a generally attuned ear could pick up on parallels to Madonna ("Dance in the Dark"), Kylie ("Telephone"), Christina ("Teeth"), The Beatles/Elton John ("Speechless"), and Ace of Bass ("Alejandro"), though I believe the last two are intentional homages. Gaga's songwriting is superior to most of these, in my opinion, but the sounds never struck me as surprising. In the case of ARTPOP and certainly Born This Way, the ingredients were as retro as always, but the way that they were assembled was the kicker. "Venus" is disco-pop, yes, but it incorporates elements from 1960s science-fiction into the fabric, and it is 100% committed to its lunacy. "Swine" is an EDM banger, yes, but with elements of metal and heavy rock (I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the breakdown section was composed on an electric guitar). "Mary Jane" is industrial dance, yes, but it ascends into straight-up rock opera by the final movement. It's flourishes and tangents like these that set ARTPOP and Born This Way apart from the first two albums, for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji 20,113 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Just now, djBuffoon said: Yes, and this is not meant to be negative. "Bad Romance" was easily the most outré song on the album. Most of the other tracks are pretty great in their own way, but after that lead single, the other ones come off a bit more familiar. Even a generally attuned ear could pick up on parallels to Madonna ("Dance in the Dark"), Kylie ("Telephone"), Christina ("Teeth"), The Beatles/Elton John ("Speechless"), and Ace of Bass ("Alejandro"), though I believe the last two are intentional homages. Gaga's songwriting is superior to most of these, in my opinion, but the sounds never struck me as surprising. In the case of ARTPOP and certainly Born This Way, the ingredients were as retro as always, but the way that they were assembled was the kicker. "Venus" is disco-pop, yes, but it incorporates elements from 1960s science-fiction into the fabric, and it is 100% committed to its lunacy. "Swine" is an EDM banger, yes, but with elements of metal and heavy rock (I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the breakdown section was composed on an electric guitar). "Mary Jane" is industrial dance, yes, but it ascends into straight-up rock opera by the final movement. It's flourishes and tangents like these that set ARTPOP and Born This Way apart from the first two albums, for me. The stark difference is that The Fame, The Fame Monster and Born This Way are built with Gaga's long term inspirations in it but with that unmistakable Gaga sound and forward thinking production. You're correct in your parallels, however those artists can be heard on every Gaga album. The issue I take with ARTPOP on this though is the production. Whilst her previous three releases were all forward thinking, ARTPOP is stuck in 2012 EDM and a want to be accepted to the radio. It wants to be on it so bad, you can't escape it. Every song's length has a maximum of a minute between them all falling around the 3:30 mark (which is also present on The Fame, although there is more track length variety). If you slapped this album on the radio, no one would blink an eye whilst if songs like Teeth, Bloody Mary, Retro Dance Freak came on (Even now) it would cause heads to turn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djBuffoon 12,115 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 10 minutes ago, Benji said: The issue I take with ARTPOP on this though is the production. Whilst her previous three releases were all forward thinking, ARTPOP is stuck in 2012 EDM and a want to be accepted to the radio. It wants to be on it so bad, you can't escape it. Every song's length has a maximum of a minute between them all falling around the 3:30 mark (which is also present on The Fame, although there is more track length variety). If you slapped this album on the radio, no one would blink an eye whilst if songs like Teeth, Bloody Mary, Retro Dance Freak came on (Even now) it would cause heads to turn. We are at an impasse on all of this, my friend, but especially the last bit. Those tracks you specified, yes, as well as nearly the entirety of Born This Way would catch listeners off-guard. If you honestly feel that "Venus", "Aura", "Mary Jane", "Swine", "ARTPOP", "Jewels n Drugs", and the majority of the whole album could fit snugly onto the radio without anyone thinking twice, I don't know what to say to that. Then again, the two most straightforward, easily digestible tracks ("Do What U Want", "Applause") are the ones that people here call "fresh" and "unique", so what do I know? lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji 20,113 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 1 minute ago, djBuffoon said: We are at an impasse, my friend. Those tracks you specified, yes, as well as nearly the entirety of Born This Way. If you honestly feel that "Venus", "Aura", "Mary Jane", "Swine", "ARTPOP", "Jewels n Drugs", and the majority of the whole album could fit snugly onto the radio without anyone thinking twice, I don't know what to say to that. Then again, the two most straightforward, easily digestible tracks ("Do What U Want", "Applause") are the ones that people here call "fresh" and "unique", so what do I know? lol I think you'd be surprised, well in my region anyway. Also worth considering the fact that Venus was supposed to be the second single etc. The only song that might sound a little scathing would be Aura's demo but even then, it's so un-offensive and watered down now, it would easily be on the radio, especially if they chucked another chorus in there. Yes, but people here are really not reflective of the general consensus on the songs. Although both are jams, don't get me wrong. Radios were eating up Applause and Do What U Want (especially) on their releases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djBuffoon 12,115 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 17 minutes ago, Benji said: I think you'd be surprised, well in my region anyway. Also worth considering the fact that Venus was supposed to be the second single etc. The only song that might sound a little scathing would be Aura's demo but even then, it's so un-offensive and watered down now, it would easily be on the radio, especially if they chucked another chorus in there. Yes, but people here are really not reflective of the general consensus on the songs. Although both are jams, don't get me wrong. Radios were eating up Applause and Do What U Want (especially) on their releases. Gaga's vocals were toned-down for the album, sure, but... what she's doing during the verses is still pretty ****in' odd. Even to this day, I still can't believe that "Venus" was literally days away from being sent to the radio. Who knows how that would have gone down... I mean, even on the basis that the lyrics are a group of non-sequitors and one word exclamations, it would have stood out. For all intents and purposes, regardless how they did/didn't do, "Applause", "Do What U Want", and "GUY" were the most logical single choices. Other than perhaps "MANiCURE" and "Gypsy", the others would have been a pretty hard interesting sell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji 20,113 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 2 minutes ago, djBuffoon said: Gaga's vocals were toned-down for the album, sure, but... what she's doing during the verses is still pretty ****in' odd. Even to this day, I still can't believe that "Venus" was literally days away from being sent to the radio. Who knows how that would have gone down... I mean, even on the basis that the lyrics are a group of non-sequitors and one word exclamations, it would have stood out. For all intents and purposes, regardless how they did/didn't do, "Applause", "Do What U Want", and "GUY" were the most logical single choices. Other than perhaps "MANiCURE" and "Gypsy", the others would have been a pretty hard sell. We'll agree to disagree because I can see this going on until LG5 takes over the forum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djBuffoon 12,115 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Just now, Benji said: We'll agree to disagree because I can see this going on until LG5 takes over the forum ok... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji 20,113 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Just now, djBuffoon said: ok... We know all our disagreements on music eventually comes down to this. We need to talk about more stuff we agree on <3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djBuffoon 12,115 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 15 minutes ago, Benji said: We know all our disagreements on music eventually comes down to this. We need to talk about more stuff we agree on <3 hehe ;) as always, a pleasure sparring with you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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