What happened back in 2013 (Gaga's artistic freedom)

[Benji 20,113]

Partying is a very small aspect of the album. There are references to it here or there, and it's most straightforwardly prevalent on "MANiCURE", correct? You could argue "Mary Jane" or "Donatella", but those songs really aren't about partying. The topics are (agreed) love, but also much moreso about artistry and personas, with many different avenues explored within those two core ideas.

You've chosen to read the album as surface-level, and the album works that way. But I see something else in it.   As for the sound of the album, we'll have to agree to disagree. Gaga has never created genres, (Born This Way was/is her most boundary-pushing) but she has taken aesthetics that are not mainstream and made them so, or attempted to. Can you name any songs in public consciousness that closely resemble "Venus","Sexxx Dreams", "Mary Jane Holland", "GUY", "Swine", "Aura"? Even more recognizable ones like "Fashion!" and "Jewels n Drugs" incorporate elements that are (to me, at least) surprising and unique.

But what sets ARTPOP apart from her previous work? All of Gaga's work thus far has either been under the guise of a persona and often contain double meanings or references that easily go under the radar, this isn't something new to ARTPOP that pushes it above her past releases.

I'm aware of and appreciate the "deeper" meanings in the music, but if we're doing that, even songs on The Fame boast more depth than ARTPOP. I mean LoveGame talks about promiscuity but uncertainty in someone's intentions and the fear of allowing one's s-x drive to overhaul their senses but compare that to G.U.Y. which is about being submissive (bedroom and outside) they're actually quite on par with depth.

Aura / G.U.Y. - Zedd / EDM POP
Venus - Poker Face, Bad Romance & Judas
Sexxx Dreams / Fashion! - Looks at Daft Punk and other disco inspired pop around 2012/2013
Swine - Calvin Harris

[Guest]

Actually it slowly started in 2012 i believe she said it started with Troy telling her she had to look more attractive to market herself better hence why she dressed more glamorous, got lip injections and was sultry and then when AP wasn't TF or TFM 2.0 with BTWs 1st week sales then well... They tried to control her more & Troy eventually quit because she refused and said no

Couldn't have said it better myself

[djBuffoon 12,118]

But what sets ARTPOP apart from her previous work? All of Gaga's work thus far has either been under the guise of a persona and often contain double meanings or references that easily go under the radar, this isn't something new to ARTPOP that pushes it above her past releases.

I'm aware of and appreciate the "deeper" meanings in the music, but if we're doing that, even songs on The Fame boast more depth than ARTPOP. I mean LoveGame talks about promiscuity but uncertainty in someone's intentions and the fear of allowing one's s-x drive to overhaul their senses but compare that to G.U.Y. which is about being submissive (bedroom and outside) they're actually quite on par with depth.

Aura / G.U.Y. - Zedd / EDM POP
Venus - Poker Face, Bad Romance & Judas
Sexxx Dreams / Fashion! - Looks at Daft Punk and other disco inspired pop around 2012/2013
Swine - Calvin Harris

What sets it apart? For one, the vast majority of songs don't sound remotely like anything she's done before. The only obvious throwback is "GUY," but I think the "LoveGame" teas are 100% intentional. You can tell Gaga wrote these songs, but they don't sound derivative of her previous work. 

Also, while there are obviously running themes in all of her albums... ARTPOP not about fame like The Fame, it's not about love or relationships like The Fame Monster, it's not about self-empowerment like Born This Way... Most prominently the album is about artistry, and what it means to be an artistic person. 

As for your examples. I mean, if we're going to do it that way, we can take any Gaga song and list the obvious influences. I don't hear any of those other Gaga tracks in "Venus", other than some very minor suggestions that it's the same songwriter. Zedd's contributions don't sound like his usual work, especially "GUY", which again sounds like quintessential Gaga. The comparisons you gave are fair I suppose, but also very general and vague. The only one that's in the ballpark is Daft Punk --> "Fashion!" If we're going to lump all of disco-pop into a single category, then Gaga's entire discography becomes redundant. I'm happy to give her a bit more credit than that.

[Alien Tulip 12,428]

ARTPOP isn't that deep.

[Benji 20,113]

What sets it apart? For one, the vast majority of songs don't sound remotely like anything she's done before. The only obvious throwback is "GUY," but I think the "LoveGame" teas are 100% intentional. You can tell Gaga wrote these songs, but they don't sound derivative of her previous work. 

Also, while there are obviously running themes in all of her albums... ARTPOP not about fame like The Fame, it's not about love or relationships like The Fame Monster, it's not about self-empowerment like Born This Way... Most prominently the album is about artistry, and what it means to be an artistic person. 

As for your examples. I mean, if we're going to do it that way, we can take any Gaga song and list the obvious influences. I don't hear any of those other Gaga tracks in "Venus", other than some very minor suggestions that it's the same songwriter. Zedd's contributions don't sound like his usual work, especially "GUY", which again sounds like quintessential Gaga. The comparisons you gave are fair I suppose, but also very general and vague. The only one that's in the ballpark is Daft Punk --> "Fashion!" If we're going to lump all of disco-pop into a single category, then Gaga's entire discography becomes redundant. I'm happy to give her a bit more credit than that.

I pulled LoveGame out of the air, I wasn't saying they were similar but it does prove my next point underneath. I was just explaining how you could easily look "deeper" into almost every Gaga song and find meanings behind the lines.

It's not really though. The only songs about her artistry are Applause and ARTPOP (arguably Aura too but the same point is there), neither really delve that deep and only really touch on the topic of what other's think about Gaga.

PF/BR/J/V - It's the song writing that makes them similar, all heavily rely on repetition and all ironically the lead or second singles. If you can't find a pattern in the four, listen to them all in a row and think about what makes the songs up. The hooks, the chorus layouts... You should be able to hear it.

I'd argue they are pretty similar. I mean it's quite obviously Zedd's sound and Gaga's style, which was kind of my point? It's literally the same formula but chasing a trend of 2012... it isn't revolutionary.

My main point is that ARTPOP is accredited as being hugely experimental or above Gaga's usual standard by it's fans but where? It's mostly the same formula except this time none of the themes are fully fleshed out or discussed and the production wasn't straying away from what was already being played. Sure, she experimented with some new sounds but every Gaga album prior has done that and more.

[gagzus 15,853]

ARTPOP isn't that deep.

I'd agree and disagree, AP is deep in terms of songwriting for Gaga and her inspirations aren't shallow but she did say the album's intention was to be an adrenaline rush, a celebration and fun

[djBuffoon 12,118]

I pulled LoveGame out of the air, I wasn't saying they were similar but it does prove my next point underneath. I was just explaining how you could easily look "deeper" into almost every Gaga song and find meanings behind the lines.

It's not really though. The only songs about her artistry are Applause and ARTPOP, neither really delve that deep and only really touch on the topic of what other's think about Gaga.

PF/BR/J/V - It's the song writing that makes them similar, all heavily rely on repetition and all ironically the lead or second singles. If you can't find a pattern in the four, listen to them all in a row and think about what makes the songs up. The hooks, the chorus layouts... You should be able to hear it.

I'd argue they are pretty similar. I mean it's quite obviously Zedd's sound and Gaga's style, which was kind of my point? It's literally the same formula but chasing a trend of 2012... it isn't revolutionary.

My main point is that ARTPOP is accredited as being hugely experimental or above Gaga's usual standard by it's fans but where? It's mostly the same formula except this time none of the themes are fully fleshed out or discussed and the production wasn't straying away from what was already being played. Sure, she experimented with some new sounds but every Gaga album prior has done that and more.

Benji, I love ya. Even if we disagree, you always indulge me in conversation. I appreciate that.

Yes, Gaga is a deeper thinker than most give her credit for. I am not, and have not, said that ARTPOP is better than her others (though it is my favorite). What I'm arguing is that her songwriting is consistently strong and multifaceted.

"Do What U Want", "Mary Jane Holland","ARTPOP", "Fashion!" "Gypsy", "Aura", "Applause", "Swine", these are all songs that practically form a the backbone of her life as an artist. Creating the work, protecting the work, losing herself in the work, almost losing everything, then coming back to the reason she does it in the first place. Yes, a Gaga song isn't characteristically "deeeeeep" like Adele or something, but there is always more than enough dig into and unpack.

I don't hear the similarities, man. Again, you can tell she wrote all the songs in question, but the connective tissue between them in terms of melody, chord structure, etc., is very very loose. We can volley all day about whether or not the album is following a trend or what have you, but I can't pinpoint any remotely popular songs that resemble the ones I mentioned.

I don't know where it came upon you that anyone calls the album hugely experimental, because that has not been my experience on this forum at all. And I certainly don't feel that way. Only Born This Way has gone above and beyond to deliver some material that was truly out-there. But I maintain that ARTPOP is more diverse and unusual than given credit for.  

[Alien Tulip 12,428]

I'd agree and disagree, AP is deep in terms of songwriting for Gaga and her inspirations aren't shallow but she did say the album's intention was to be an adrenaline rush, a celebration and fun

Songwriting...some of them like Dope, Swine, and DWUW but Swine and DWUW are masked with huge electronic beats. The rest of the album just feels...tacky like every time I listen to it I feel like I'm consuming 3,000 pounds of sugar.

[gagzus 15,853]

Songwriting...some of them like Dope, Swine, and DWUW but Swine and DWUW are masked with huge electronic beats. The rest of the album just feels...tacky like every time I listen to it I feel like I'm consuming 3,000 pounds of sugar.

well that's your personal experience I guess, and your personal experience can determine your own outcome, but as a lover of EDM and all it's sub-genres I can tell you it's a perfect blend of EDM sub-genres and Pop melodies with more poetic writing.

ARTPOP, Aura, Mary Jane Holland and Applause are easily to me her best songs lyrically along with a few on BTW like BJAF, Scheiße & TEOG. ARTPOP is the best songwriting she's ever done in her career so far it's poetic and beautiful imo.

[kiwifromvenus 508]

Songwriting...some of them like Dope, Swine, and DWUW but Swine and DWUW are masked with huge electronic beats. The rest of the album just feels...tacky like every time I listen to it I feel like I'm consuming 3,000 pounds of sugar.

Just because the songs have electronic beats as you say does not mean they are not deep. There is the adrenaline rush she wanted everyone to feel - "I feel like I'm consuming 3,000 pounds of sugar." 

[Alien Tulip 12,428]

Just because the songs have electronic beats as you say does not mean they are not deep. There is the adrenaline rush she wanted everyone to feel - "I feel like I'm consuming 3,000 pounds of sugar." 

Yeah but it doesnt make me want to dance except DWUW and sometimes Applause

[Alien Tulip 12,428]

well that's your personal experience I guess, and your personal experience can determine your own outcome, but as a lover of EDM and all it's sub-genres I can tell you it's a perfect blend of EDM sub-genres and Pop melodies with more poetic writing.

ARTPOP, Aura, Mary Jane Holland and Applause are easily to me her best songs lyrically along with a few on BTW like BJAF, Scheiße & TEOG. ARTPOP is the best songwriting she's ever done in her career so far it's poetic and beautiful imo.

I agree with you on the edge of glory and scheisse

[Twitter 14]

Something about all the stories from Sept 2012 to Dec 2013 sounds fishy to me. 

[Benji 20,113]

19 hours ago, djBuffoon said:

Benji, I love ya. Even if we disagree, you always indulge me in conversation. I appreciate that.

Yes, Gaga is a deeper thinker than most give her credit for. I am not, and have not, said that ARTPOP is better than her others (though it is my favorite). What I'm arguing is that her songwriting is consistently strong and multifaceted.

"Do What U Want", "Mary Jane Holland","ARTPOP", "Fashion!" "Gypsy", "Aura", "Applause", "Swine", these are all songs that practically form a the backbone of her life as an artist. Creating the work, protecting the work, losing herself in the work, almost losing everything, then coming back to the reason she does it in the first place. Yes, a Gaga song isn't characteristically "deeeeeep" like Adele or something, but there is always more than enough dig into and unpack.

I don't hear the similarities, man. Again, you can tell she wrote all the songs in question, but the connective tissue between them in terms of melody, chord structure, etc., is very very loose. We can volley all day about whether or not the album is following a trend or what have you, but I can't pinpoint any remotely popular songs that resemble the ones I mentioned.

I don't know where it came upon you that anyone calls the album hugely experimental, because that has not been my experience on this forum at all. And I certainly don't feel that way. Only Born This Way has gone above and beyond to deliver some material that was truly out-there. But I maintain that ARTPOP is more diverse and unusual than given credit for.  

It's okay! I would have replied earlier but timezones and the update got in the way smh

I don't think you're understanding my point though. I'm asking you what makes these songs "better" than her previous? I mean Gaga's addressed so much on her previous albums, with more depth, stronger lyrics and just generally a more interesting approach than the songs on ARTPOP.

Well you'll never hear it if you don't want to. I personally feel like most of the album belongs in 2012, and even then, that doesn't excuse the drop in lyrical quality.

Really? There was a thread just a few weeks ago declaring how adventurous and experimental it was for her to do? I agree with you on Born This Way, it is her most "out-there" album. Mmmm, I know your opinion won't budge which is fair, I just personally don't see how we can place it above her previous. It's diverse and unusual for a pop album, but it's the least diverse and unusual in terms of Gaga's albums.

[bionic 50,051]

21 hours ago, SpaceJam said:

it was near 2007 spears levels almost

I sternly disagree