Portugal bans burqas in public spaces

[onTheBrink 1,606]

10 hours ago, GagaisHotAF said:

one’s religious traditions shouldn’t pose security risks. there are 2 billion muslims in the world, they aren’t oppressed. if they are against the laws in portugal, they can go somewhere else where there are more people with their same beliefs 🤷🏻‍♂️

You're saying this on a Gaga fan site where you know most people are progressive, anti-racist and left wing. If I was to tell you to go to another website, your response would be "why should I?"

Edited 21 hours ago by onTheBrink

[GagaisHotAF 459]

9 minutes ago, onTheBrink said:

You're saying this on a Gaga fan site where you know most people are progressive, anti-racist and left wing. If I was to tell you to go to another website, your response would be "why should I?"

nothing progressive about burqas, and islam isn’t a race. i also have that same energy for christians. based on this thread many people agree with me. not everyone in the left wing agrees on everything. i enjoy diversity of thought, but that is just me. 

[onTheBrink 1,606]

7 minutes ago, GagaisHotAF said:

nothing progressive about burqas, and islam isn’t a race. i also have that same energy for christians. based on this thread many people agree with me. not everyone in the left wing agrees on everything. i enjoy diversity of thought, but that is just me. 

[GagaisHotAF 459]

8 minutes ago, onTheBrink said:

didn’t go over my head. i wouldn’t leave the site because i have been here for so long. false comparison. many if those wearing burqas were not from portugal and so if they want to exercise their hyper religious values by wearing a burqa, they can leave. or choose to not wear their burqa and stay. there are rules you must follow on this site, if you don’t like the rules you can leave

[Bronco 27,016]

Man.

If I was a mod, the cleansing this thread would have led to would deserve a gagapedia page 😂

[Ladle Ghoulash 55,120]

40 minutes ago, GagaisHotAF said:

i enjoy diversity of thought

“I enjoy diversity of thought, however I do believe the state should single out and curtail the religious practices of one religion specifically.”

[Apec 361]

On 8/27/2026 at 11:09 AM, faysalaaa said:

Show me one verse in the Quran that says women have to cover their face. Even the hijab is not in the Quran.

Isn't it explicitly said in one of the Hadiths (Rules/Sayings of the Prophet, his orbit and sometimes one of his wives about how a true Muslim should live)? I thought it was following Qur'aan, Sunnah and Hadeeth for most Muslims?

 “O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

[al-Ahzab 33:59]

Narrated by al-Bukhari, no.6474 (This is Muhammad's brother-in-law, best friend and later military leader second-in-command if I'm not mistaken):

There is no doubt that the woman who observes hijab completely and has the characteristics of chastity and modesty will protect herself and her honour more than the one whose hijab is lacking and who uncovers any part of her body, even if the latter also keeps away from zina and what leads to it. Hence Allah has promised to the women who adopt complete hijab and protect their honour from haram (unlawful) things, forgiveness and a great reward, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) guaranteed that they would enter Paradise. 

I seem to remember a ruling for men's ‘awrah (yes other readers, now you know what double entendre Gaga's Aura was going for - basically meaning "that what must be hidden from sight" ) being everything BUT their chest, neck, arms, face, hands and again, if I recall correctly, in some situations the knee and everything below.

Of course I know many Islamic sects either don't follow/recognize many Hadeeth or cherry pick which ones count (like Christians wearing clothes made of different fabrics and eating meat on Fridays). Years ago I read the Qur'aan, many (recognized) Hadeeth and a lot of at the time current Shariah rulings about people living among the Kuffaar (kind of an insulting term for us non-Muslims, but anyway) by Salafi Scholars because I wanted to know what I was talking about.

I'm in Europe and had a good friend who was forced into wearing the Niqab at age 11 - in Elementary school - because she had begun to menstruate. She'd protested but her father and five brothers vowed to kill her if she didn't. Her years-long friendship with me was basically clandestine as she wasn't allowed to look us in the eyes, for fear of Shaytaan whispering untruths in her ears or people like me leading a weak girl astray (we met when we were both 7). I fed her 3/4ths of my sandwiches during lunch and large chunks of sugary/chocolate kids cookies at playtime during Ramadan most days (she had to observe even before menstruation which is NOT the norm) because she was close to fainting nearly every day - incredibly pale, cold sweats, so dizzy and could barely stand on her feet - I have no regrets and neither did she. She believed they would actually go through with their threat re: the Niqab. I'm talking about an extreme example but that is my lived experience.  

BUT: As a queer feminist who is 100% atheist and secular in nature, I OPPOSE curtailing religious freedom in principle, especially when tried by fascist far right parties who just use fear (the most irrational emotion of all, thus easily exploited) as an excuse to single out minorities to punish. I tremble for the already suppressed women in Portugal who are caught between two fires, and I am sad for the women who chose freely and have had their rights taken away.

Edited 10 hours ago by Apec

[nATAH 57,656]

3 hours ago, GagaisHotAF said:

didn’t go over my head. i wouldn’t leave the site because i have been here for so long. false comparison. many if those wearing burqas were not from portugal and so if they want to exercise their hyper religious values by wearing a burqa, they can leave. or choose to not wear their burqa and stay. there are rules you must follow on this site, if you don’t like the rules you can leave

you should leave, you're not welcome here

[faysalaaa 5,375]

9 hours ago, Apec said:

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Interesting how u inserted ur commentary into the verse, and altered some of the words to change its meaning! Im not sure if its dishonesty or u copy pasted it from an Anti Muslim website? Here is the verse: "O Prophet! Ask your wives, daughters, and believing women to draw their cloaks over their bodies. In this way it is more likely that they will be recognized ˹as virtuous˺ and not be harassed. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

This verse says what the other verse I explained says, to use the cloths u r already wearing to generally cover ur body as they were being sexually persecuted. There is no face covering, which is why only 1% of Muslim wear a Burqa, and even they admit its not part of the religion. And you saying they have to cover one eye is wild, have you ever seen a one eyed Niqab? Are you trolling? lol
 

9 hours ago, Apec said:

Narrated by al-Bukhari, no.6474  : There is no doubt that the woman who observes hijab completely and has the characteristics of chastity and modesty will protect herself and her honour more than the one whose hijab is lacking and who uncovers any part of her body,  

Okay now im sure you are dishonest because this is clear and obvious fabrication. The hadith does not even mention hijab or anything close to it. Infact, its not even addressing women, it includes men too. Here is the hadith the way its originally written: "Whoever can guarantee (the chastity of) what is between his two jaw-bones and what is between his two legs (i.e. his tongue and his private parts), I guarantee Paradise for him"
 

9 hours ago, Apec said:

I'm in Europe and had a good friend who was forced into wearing the Niqab at age 11 - in Elementary school - because she had begun to menstruate. She'd protested but her father and five brothers vowed to kill her if she didn't. Her years-long friendship with me was basically clandestine as she wasn't allowed to look us in the eyes, for fear of Shaytaan whispering untruths in her ears or people like me leading a weak girl astray (we met when we were both 7). I fed her 3/4ths of my sandwiches during lunch and large chunks of sugary/chocolate kids cookies at playtime during Ramadan most days (she had to observe even before menstruation which is NOT the norm) because she was close to fainting nearly every day - incredibly pale, cold sweats, so dizzy and could barely stand on her feet

Yeah horrible people exist, im sure there is a Christian version of this in Mississippi right now. But the question is, does Islam allows this? Jesus said that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath", and we have a similar concept. Islamic jurisprudence explicitly prioritizes human health, safety, and well-being over the ritual of fasting. Islam outlines a list of exemptions, one of them is how anyone experiencing dizziness, fainting, or severe weakness requires a person to break their fast immediately. And in mainstream Islamic jurisprudence, women dress rules must be a matter of personal choice, because it falls under Hudud Allah laws. So what your friend experienced is not Islam.
 

9 hours ago, Apec said:

BUT: As a queer feminist who is 100% atheist and secular in nature, I OPPOSE curtailing religious freedom in principle, especially when tried by fascist far right parties who just use fear (the most irrational emotion of all, thus easily exploited) as an excuse to single out minorities to punish. I tremble for the already suppressed women in Portugal who are caught between two fires, and I am sad for the women who chose freely and have had their rights taken away.

You do realize that u are the far right fascist ur talking about right? You literally said u want to ban religion because ur secular! Then u claim u dont want minorities rights to be taken away, yet you are the one taking it away (yes habibi I know u think ur saving them). You say fascists use fear, yet your entire argument is based on fear, and want to take peoples freedom because of fear. Instead of advocating for secular rights, and having laws to protect women in religion, your fear makes u think its justified to take people rights away to save them.

I know you dont see yourself this way, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  You do realize that most fascists are honestly the nicest normal people? but they have the same kind of fear u have that pushes them to justify their behavior. And yes its still fascism even if you are queer, feminist, and secular.

Edited 9 hours ago by faysalaaa

[faysalaaa 5,375]

16 hours ago, GagaisHotAF said:

nothing progressive about burqas, and islam isn’t a race. i also have that same energy for christians. based on this thread many people agree with me. not everyone in the left wing agrees on everything. i enjoy diversity of thought, but that is just me. 

Nobody is saying Burqas are progressive, almost everyone here defending Burqas are anti Burqa. But its part of progressive values is to allow others individual freedom. If you are progressive, you should understand this basic principle right?

Yes yes, trust me habibi, I know you can come up with amazing arguments on why progressives should abandon their values for Muslims this time because Islam is uniquely dangerous! Okay but then you are not progressive anymore. You cant let go of progressive values and then say but the Muslims made me do it! If you are willing to let go of progressive values when Shitt hits the fan, then whats the point on having the value?  

Edited 4 hours ago by faysalaaa

[Apec 361]

5 hours ago, faysalaaa said:

Its interesting how you added your personal commentary into the verse, and altered some of the words to change its meaning! Im not sure if you are being dishonest or you copy pasted it from an Anti Muslim website? Here is the verse without your personal editing:

"O Prophet! Ask your wives, daughters, and believing women to draw their cloaks over their bodies. In this way it is more likely that they will be recognized ˹as virtuous˺ and not be harassed. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Just like the other verse I explained, this verse simply says to use the cloths they are already wearing to generally cover their body because they were being sexually persecuted. There is no covering face, which is why only 1% of Muslim women wear a Burqa, and even they admit it not part of the religion.
 

Okay now im sure you are using a dishonest Anti Muslim website because this is clear and obvious fabrication. The hadith does not even mention hijab or anything close to it. Infact, its not even addressing women, it includes men too. Here is the hadith the way its originally written:

"Whoever can guarantee (the chastity of) what is between his two jaw-bones and what is between his two legs (i.e. his tongue and his private parts), I guarantee Paradise for him..
 

Yeah horrible people exist, im sure there is a Christian version of this in Mississippi right now. But the question is, does Islam allows this?

Jesus said that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath", and we have a similar concept. Islamic jurisprudence explicitly prioritizes human health, safety, and well-being over the ritual of fasting. Islam outlines a list of exemptions, one of them is how anyone experiencing dizziness, fainting, or severe weakness requires a person to break their fast immediately. And in mainstream Islamic jurisprudence, women dress rules must be a matter of personal choice, because it falls under Hudud Allah laws.
 

You do realize that you are the far right fascist right? You literally said you want to remove religious freedoms because you are secular! So you want to remove peoples freedom because you believe something? Its still fascism even if you are queer, feminist, and secular. Then you claim you dont want minorities to be targeted or rights to be taken away, yet you are the one taking away their rights and targeting them. You say fascists use fear, yet your entire argument is based on fear, and want to take action because of false fears.

I know you dont see yourself this way, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Instead of advocating for secular rights for all, and having laws to protect women in religion, your fear leads you to banning freedom and taking away the rights of the people you claim you want to protect. You dont realize that thats how fascists also think? most fascists are nice normal people, but they have the same kind of fear that pushes them to justify their behavior.

And all this confident yet you know nothing about Islam as I established above

You're accusing me of being a fascist? I am AGAINST this law on principle and in practice, which was my overall point, regardless of what I've seen, which was an outlier. I absolutely know about the fasting rule for the ill and elderly and disabled but her parents obviously didn't care or notice - as with every religion, people take what they want out of it and discard the rest which in extreme cases causes drastic negative results. Where did I say I want to take action - out of fear, no less? I fed the girl with my own food/snacks when she was unwell at 7, 8, 9 and 10 years old (we didn't have meals we could buy, we had to bring our own stuff), we were the same age. Yet I am STILL against curtailing religious freedoms, period. No action on my part except protesting taking away civil liberties and rights from religious minorities.

I mentioned another religion's "hypocrisy" in not following thousands of years old prescriptions (clothes, food), Christianity in this case, and said that of course not every Muslim sect/division follows all Hadeeth and that my personal lived experience was an extreme case, not a normal one. Despite that experience, taking away religious freedom is not something I want to see, ever, unless it threads on my ability to be an atheist and queer feminist. I expressed my sadness for women in Portugal who choose to wear it, that is where MY feelings lie. I said I am personally atheist and secular in nature, meaning that's how I see my own life and have seen it like that from my very first memories - like, I'm not going to hang a cross on my wall because Catholicism is the dominant strain/sect of Christianity in my country - that's ALL I meant by being secular - I never mentioned I saw SOCIETY as one without visible signs of religion. Maybe the only thing I meant, subconsciously, is the fundamental separation of Church and State in a democracy, I don't want Catholicism to intrude on laws here meant for people of all/no faiths for example - same laws for everyone. Yet that atheist outlook didn't stop me from making Christian, Zen Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim friends! I mean, the one I mentioned wasn't my only Muslim-raised friend but I knew her the best because of the extremity of the situation/she was such a lovely, warm, good-hearted girl and we divulged a lot about our lives and thoughts - not just played together in the schoolyard.

As for getting things from an Anti-Islam site? Nope, to quickly find the verses in question (because it's been such a long time since I spent hours a day with my nose in the Qur'aan, the most recognized Hadeeth and Islamic Jurisprudence because unlike others who propose preposterous laws like this I wanted to be informed - and yes, I read the Old and New Testament as well long before that) AND it was literally your question I used a PRO-Islam site, any altering of said verses was done by the self-proclaimed Muslim scholars on Islam Q&A's "Status of Hadeeth Concerning Virtue of Hijab" (also available in Arabic):

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/146822/status-of-hadeeth-concerning-virtue-of-hijab

I take serious issue with your accusations. You mentioned the Qur'aan, I asked if for a Muslim this wouldn't be under the Hadeeth - as I've gathered that following the Qur'aan, Sunnah and Hadeeth are key, not just knowing your Qur'aan (at least for most, it was my literal question to you actually  But I don't think you picked up on that). Furthermore I repeat that despite extremism existing in every religion, I would never advocate taking away religious freedoms because of outliers. That was my entire point, besides answering where the notion of Hijab comes up in direct response to your post. Answering your question (if hastily) and making that statement re: protecting religious freedoms were my intention and that shall never change. Good day.

Edited 8 hours ago by Apec

[Chromanne 2,671]

Portugal, being a secular country, shouldn't pose restrictions on freedom of religion. At the same time, they are also women who are conditioned or forced by their families to wear burqa. We just need to let women decide for themselves if they want to wear hijab/burqa. 

[faysalaaa 5,375]

2 hours ago, Apec said:

You're accusing me of being a fascist? I am AGAINST this law on principle and in practice, which was my overall point, regardless of what I've seen, which was an outlier. I absolutely know about the fasting rule for the ill and elderly and disabled but her parents obviously didn't care or notice - as with every religion, people take what they want out of it and discard the rest which in extreme cases causes drastic negative results. Where did I say I want to take action - out of fear, no less? I fed the girl with my own food/snacks when she was unwell at 7, 8, 9 and 10 years old (we didn't have meals we could buy, we had to bring our own stuff), we were the same age. Yet I am STILL against curtailing religious freedoms, period. No action on my part except protesting taking away civil liberties and rights from religious minorities.

I mentioned another religion's "hypocrisy" in not following thousands of years old prescriptions (clothes, food), Christianity in this case, and said that of course not every Muslim sect/division follows all Hadeeth and that my personal lived experience was an extreme case, not a normal one. Despite that experience, taking away religious freedom is not something I want to see, ever, unless it threads on my ability to be an atheist and queer feminist. I expressed my sadness for women in Portugal who choose to wear it, that is where MY feelings lie. I said I am personally atheist and secular in nature, meaning that's how I see my own life and have seen it like that from my very first memories - like, I'm not going to hang a cross on my wall because Catholicism is the dominant strain/sect of Christianity in my country - that's ALL I meant by being secular - I never mentioned I saw SOCIETY as one without visible signs of religion. Maybe the only thing I meant, subconsciously, is the fundamental separation of Church and State in a democracy, I don't want Catholicism to intrude on laws here meant for people of all/no faiths for example - same laws for everyone. Yet that atheist outlook didn't stop me from making Christian, Zen Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim friends! I mean, the one I mentioned wasn't my only Muslim-raised friend but I knew her the best because of the extremity of the situation/she was such a lovely, warm, good-hearted girl and we divulged a lot about our lives and thoughts - not just played together in the schoolyard.

As for getting things from an Anti-Islam site? Nope, to quickly find the verses in question (because it's been such a long time since I spent hours a day with my nose in the Qur'aan, the most recognized Hadeeth and Islamic Jurisprudence because unlike others who propose preposterous laws like this I wanted to be informed - and yes, I read the Old and New Testament as well long before that) AND it was literally your question I used a PRO-Islam site, any altering of said verses was done by the self-proclaimed Muslim scholars on Islam Q&A's "Status of Hadeeth Concerning Virtue of Hijab" (also available in Arabic):

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/146822/status-of-hadeeth-concerning-virtue-of-hijab

I take serious issue with your accusations. You mentioned the Qur'aan, I asked if for a Muslim this wouldn't be under the Hadeeth - as I've gathered that following the Qur'aan, Sunnah and Hadeeth are key, not just knowing your Qur'aan (at least for most, it was my literal question to you actually  But I don't think you picked up on that). Furthermore I repeat that despite extremism existing in every religion, I would never advocate taking away religious freedoms because of outliers. That was my entire point, besides answering where the notion of Hijab comes up in direct response to your post. Answering your question (if hastily) and making that statement re: protecting religious freedoms were my intention and that shall never change. Good day.

Sorry I think I misunderstood you and got defensive! Not sure if its my English or if you were not clear enough? Its probably because all the anti Muslim comments made me make assumptions abour yours too. I swear I red it as you trying to disprove my religion to weaponize it against Muslims and their rights.
  
 

Edited 5 hours ago by faysalaaa

[Apec 361]

1 hour ago, faysalaaa said:

Sorry I think misunderstood you and got defensive! Not sure if its my English or if you were not clear enough? Its probably because all the anti Muslim comments made me make assumptions abour yours too. I swear I red it as you trying to disprove my religion to weaponize it against Muslims and their rights.
  
 

    
I was definitely not trying to weaponize your religion against you. I hadn't read all the pages, still haven't - don't think I could handle it.

I just added an anecdote about when I was much younger about a family who really didn't follow the rules of Islam - there are extremists in every religion - and that still doesn't make me see all Muslims as them like that far right party in Portugal that made this ban happen would happily do! I'm still a big defender of religious freedom, even after having seen that friend suffer with her outlier family. When I talked about fear, it's that far right and populist parties use fear of the "unknown" or "different" to stir up crowds to vote for them and create scapegoats out of minorities in their countries, in this case Muslims.

The quotes were literally taken from that link because I wanted to answer the question in your first post, but I was in a hurry so didn't dig up the original sources but remembered that site as well-versed in recognized Hadith Sciences, as they call it, I didn't see alterations but that was probably because it was in response to a question submitted there, sorry.  

A criticism I have (since you asked outright), and this goes for all religions really, is that I so wish women could not just be seen as lesser than or "complimentary to" men. Like we're made to serve and never seen as autonomous beings with just as rich an inner life as men. I just wish for a world where women are equal to men and are free to choose for themselves, you know? 

Just know that I'm on the side of religious freedom/freedom of religion, though, that was my original message. 

I'd like to hear about that semi-secular state you mentioned before your edit (sorry) sometime. I need to go sleep but religion fascinates me too (as a non-believer even).

Edited 5 hours ago by Apec

[faysalaaa 5,375]

1 hour ago, Apec said:

    
I was definitely not trying to weaponize your religion against you. I hadn't read all the pages, still haven't - don't think I could handle it.

I just added an anecdote about when I was much younger about a family who really didn't follow the rules of Islam - there are extremists in every religion - and that still doesn't make me see all Muslims as them like that far right party in Portugal that made this ban happen would happily do! I'm still a big defender of religious freedom, even after having seen that friend suffer with her outlier family. When I talked about fear, it's that far right and populist parties use fear of the "unknown" or "different" to stir up crowds to vote for them and create scapegoats out of minorities in their countries, in this case Muslims.

The quotes were literally taken from that link because I wanted to answer the question in your first post, but I was in a hurry so didn't dig up the original sources but remembered that site as well-versed in recognized Hadith Sciences, as they call it, I didn't see alterations but that was probably because it was in response to a question submitted there, sorry.  

A criticism I have (since you asked outright), and this goes for all religions really, is that I so wish women could not just be seen as lesser than or "complimentary to" men. Like we're made to serve and never seen as autonomous beings with just as rich an inner life as men. I just wish for a world where women are equal to men and are free to choose for themselves, you know? 

Just know that I'm on the side of religious freedom/freedom of religion, though, that was my original message. 

I'd like to hear about that semi-secular state you mentioned before your edit (sorry) sometime. I need to go sleep but religion fascinates me too (as a non-believer even).

The Constitution of Medina is considered the first-ever written constitution or social contract in human history. When Muslims were persecuted and killed in Mecca, Muhammad migrated to Medina who welcomed him. Medina was a multicultural city with alot of Arab Jews and Christians. When he wrote the first constitutiohe said things like: None Muslims (including Pegans) are considered one community with the Muslims equally. They should be guaranteed the right of religious freedom. None Muslims have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. The prophet created a governmental social system called Bayt Almal to help the needy including none Muslims.

Women in Islam are not secondary to men, or commanded to follow men. even in role. Even the Adam and Eve story is changed to both eating the Apple and getting the blame. Islam granted women full independent Ownership which was groundbreaking pioneer in the 7th century. And here are some verses talking about their equality: "The believers, both men and women, are guardians of one another. They encourage good and forbid evil, It is they who will be shown Allah’s mercy. Surely Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. And one of His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves so that you may find comfort in them. And He has placed between you compassion and tranquility and mercy. Surely in this are signs for people who reflect. 

I dont fully reject hadiths, I see it as a history book that can compliment my religion, but its not doctrine or fully authentic. I dont believe hadiths can legislate laws outside of the Quran or contradict it. All the issues in Islam come from the hadith. I dont believe in womens dress code in Islam, it only gives you a general rule for modesty based on the culture you live in, which also applies to men.

Hope I answered your questions?

Edited 4 hours ago by faysalaaa