Joanne

[Controversiaga 14,035]

Also strange for this album to be considered so personal when I think it and Chromatica are the two albums she worked with premade songs , like come to mama and perfect illusion, and I think the rest of the album, like million reasons and sinners prayer and other tracks, showcase more of Hilary Lindsay and father John Misty lyrics than Gaga’s lyrics but idk 

[Oriane 22,382]

1 hour ago, gagzus said:

It should be noted however that Gaga rewrote almost all of Perfect Illusion expect for the “it wasn’t love” part, the original demo isn’t the same and the chorus was “it wasn’t love it was a just an illusion” so I’d say it most definitely still is about Taylor.

I don’t use my “I’ve heard the demo” card before but my trader friend has sent me the demo of Kevin’s version just called “Illusion” and the verses aren’t remotely the same lyrics.

Thats the reason it 100% was chosen as the lead single because her label heard the song and wanted to profit off her breakup. Same for Million Reasons becoming a single over A-Yo if we’re honest. In fact ALL the singles chosen in Joanne profited off her breakup from Taylor (PI, MR & JW) obviously the re-recording of Joanne was the last single but I think it made sense to be the final single for her to close a chapter

Is that's true, it puts even more weight to the fact that it's not about Taylor. The chorus is the only part that is clearly about love and it might seem like a reach to say it's about social media. But the verses are a lot more ambiguous, and in the grand scheme of things, they're very close to what Gaga usually writes about fame and her relationship to the public.

And I said it before but yeah, I just don't see her writing off her longest relationship at the time which almost ended in marriage with "it wasn't love". They had a beautiful but complicated relationship, and Million Reasons acknowledges that.

[gagzus 20,561]

9 minutes ago, Oriane said:

Is that's true, it puts even more weight to the fact that it's not about Taylor. The chorus is the only part that is clearly about love and it might seem like a reach to say it's about social media. But the verses are a lot more ambiguous, and in the grand scheme of things, they're very close to what Gaga usually writes about fame and her relationship to the public.

And I said it before but yeah, I just don't see her writing off her longest relationship at the time which almost ended in marriage with "it wasn't love". They had a beautiful but complicated relationship, and Million Reasons acknowledges that.

I just think given the timing of when it was written, what we’ve seen on 5F2, plus probably a lot more we don’t know. It feels most obviously about Taylor. 
 

I think she made it, and when the label picked it as the lead she made up another narrative that fits it just to save face. You go through all sorts of emotions when a long term relationship breaks down so her calling it all an illusion makes sense as a person who’s had long term relationships break down. You do question all the good times.

Nobody is ever out promoting their public breakup song by admitting it’s directly about someone specific, even Taylor Swift never outrightly says that in interviews. She never outrightly admitted Out of The Woods was about Harry Styles for example even though it clearly is. 
 

That’s why I think she’s made sure she now picks her singles to control the narrative always. I mean from behind the scenes almost ALL of ARTPOP was being pushed to be purposely controversial as an era to keep her name in the spotlight. DWUW was just the one thing that got through.

 

Edited Thursday at 04:26 PM by gagzus

[nATAH 55,268]

1 hour ago, gagzus said:

she was having a slow burn breakup (as seen in the 5F2 docu) and wrote a song with the lyrics, "it was a perfect illusion, mistaken for love, it wasn't" and "that's what it means to crush now that I'm waking up" plus we know Taylor basically broke her illusion when he turned against her after she got the ASIB offer. Presumably out of jealousy. Bare in mind between AP - Joanne was the longest she'd ever been off touring to spend time with him so he probably wasn't the person she thought he was hence a "perfect illusion". 

I mean obviously this is all my speculation, perhaps you're right, but that's just my two cents.

i like your two cents but those lyrics are still very vague to me

if you look at Speechless as an example:

Last night, we were alone
You threw your hands up
Baby, you gave up, you gave up

With your James Dean glossy eyes
In your tight jeans, with your long hair

But you choose "death and company"

these are lyrics that contain details of appearances, emotions and situation at hand

compare that to PI:

Trying to get control
Pressure's taking its toll
Stuck in the middle zone
I just want you alone
My guessing game is strong
Way too real to be wrong

this could be about anyoneeee 

You & I is also a great example of her having specific details about somebody

Edited Thursday at 04:59 PM by nATAH

[Oriane 22,382]

1 hour ago, gagzus said:

I just think given the timing of when it was written, what we’ve seen on 5F2, plus probably a lot more we don’t know. It feels most obviously about Taylor. 
 

I think she made it, and when the label picked it as the lead she made up another narrative that fits it just to save face. You go through all sorts of emotions when a long term relationship breaks down so her calling it all an illusion makes sense as a person who’s had long term relationships break down. You do question all the good times.

Nobody is ever out promoting their public breakup song by admitting it’s directly about someone specific, even Taylor Swift never outrightly says that in interviews. She never outrightly admitted Out of The Woods was about Harry Styles for example even though it clearly is. 
 

That’s why I think she’s made sure she now picks her singles to control the narrative always. I mean from behind the scenes almost ALL of ARTPOP was being pushed to be purposely controversial as an era to keep her name in the spotlight. DWUW was just the one thing that got through.

 

Hmm, I agree that you'll feel all kinds of things but writing a song about it and releasing it, especially if you're a big popstar, is a big step that has consequences and an impact on the person, it's a very conscious decision. I don't think she would feel comfortable saying THAT in front of the whole world.

[imogen2133 355]

2 hours ago, nATAH said:

i like your two cents but those lyrics are still very vague to me

if you look at Speechless as an example:

Last night, we were alone
You threw your hands up
Baby, you gave up, you gave up

With your James Dean glossy eyes
In your tight jeans, with your long hair

But you choose "death and company"

these are lyrics that contain details of appearances, emotions and situation at hand

compare that to PI:

Trying to get control
Pressure's taking its toll
Stuck in the middle zone
I just want you alone
My guessing game is strong
Way too real to be wrong

this could be about anyoneeee 

You & I is also a great example of her having specific details about somebody

Omg Natah you said something I agree with miracles do happen but anyway this is kind of my whole point. It is hard for me to see it as Gaga's most personal album when most of the lyrics are so generalized(besides Joanne and Diamond Heart) with songs like Speechless, The Edge of Glory, Marry The Night, Gypsy, Black Jesus + Amen Fashion, You And I and Dope it is easy to see how those songs are personal to her and how they relate to her, her relationships and her life. But I don't get that sense with most of the songs (besides Joanne and Diamond Heart and maybe Million Reasons) on Joanne. Also PI being a Tame Impala demo first and the lyrics being vague make it hard to see it as being about Taylor(or social media).

Edited Thursday at 07:24 PM by imogen2133

[KindnessPunk 2,368]

Not really OT but I always thought Joanne and Chromatica were two sides of the “personal” coin, where Joanne is extrospective (reflecting on the world around her) and Chromatica being very introspective (her feelings about herself), two amazing companion pieces 

Edited yesterday at 04:23 AM by KindnessPunk

[imogen2133 355]

@Ladle Ghoulash @Starmie25 @gagzus @Oriane @nATAH @gagacabana

Ok so there are too many posts for me to reply to so I will just do it here.

I have analyzed Joanne again and read all the posts and come to a better understanding now.

I would say at least almost half the album is personal to Gaga and the other half is more general but I know why.

Personal:

Diamond Heart- About her time as a go-go dancer in NYC when she was 19 and about how her Dad was tough on her growing up and overprotective due to how Joanne's death affected him.

Joanne-About Gaga's aunt and is essentially what Gaga's family and especially her dad would say to Joanne if they had more time with her before she passed.

John Wayne-Now this one is a bit iffy because I don't really think Gaga was ever really into cowboy types and we can see that in her dating history but it is also about falling for a bad boy type that is reckless and probably not good for Gaga which is something she explored before in songs like Judas and Bad Romance so I will reluctantly put it in this category.

Million Reasons-About how Gaga only needs one good reason to stay in a tumultuous relationship. Quite a general song in it's lyrics but it is hard to not see it as being about Taylor and I believe Gaga said as much in the 5ft2 documentary so I will place it here.

Sinners prayer-About how Gaga is flawed as a person but she still wants to be loved anyway in her relationships and how she is committed. Again quite general but Natali is mentioned in the 2nd verse/relationship with her boyfriend and it could easily be seen as Gaga being flawed and admitting her flaws which are caused from tough parenting by her Dad which was caused by Joanne's death.

Grigio Girls-About Gaga's close friend Sonya and how Gaga and her friends would drink to cope with Sonya's death and her happy memories of Sonya.

Less personal/more generalized tracks:

Ayo-About blowing off haters and pissing people off/being happy about pissing people off and comparing it to blowing off smoke but the lyrics are too repetitive here and general to be about Gaga specifically.

Dancin' In Circles-It is more generally about female m*sturbation and rubbing the pain out when a lover is not there and pretending they are there but again the lyrics are more general/conceptual.

Perfect Illusion-Now whether or not it is about Taylor is something that could be(and has been) argued back and fourth all day but I personally don't think it is, I don't think Taylor and Gaga ended things on bad terms really and the song was a mostly already completed demo by Kevin Parker before Gaga wrote on it anyway so it is hard for me to see it as deeply personal/about Taylor but again it is debatable.

Come To Mama-More broadly about a message about humanity needing to come together and love one another but most of the demo was written and done by Father John Misty(even though Gaga also wrote on it) so it is hard for me to really see it as Gaga's song or deeply personal.

Hey Girl-Similar to CTM it is more broadly about female solidarity, female friendships and women coming together, less personal.

Angel Down-Broadly about social injustice against black people and about the Treyvon Martin case but more so about larger societal issues then a song that is personal to Gaga(also applies to CTM and HG).

Just Another Day-I know Gaga said it is about NYC and is like if her and Mark knew each other as kids and there are shout outs to her friends but overall I see it more as a general song about staying positive and not letting negativity bother you then as a song with deeply personal lyrics.

Ok so I now also understand that the only song on the album about Joanne is the title track and that the album as a whole is not supposed to be about her but is more so dedicated to her.

Also in the sense of it being personal because Joanne is her middle name and because of her being affected by generational trauma and her Dad being tough on her due to Joanne's death I really only see that explored on Diamond Heart, Sinners Prayer and *maybe* John Wayne and if you wanted to see it as being about Gaga's struggles with fame you could read that into some of the songs if you want but I feel that is more interpretation then what Gaga intended but again the lyrics are general enough that you could if you wanted to. 

So I think that Gaga obviously intended to write personal material for the album and that was one of her main goals when making it but her larger intention/goal was to make an album that appealed to Middle America and the people who were turned off from her previously because of her "alien monster persona"(especially after ARTPOP) and she wanted to appeal more to the general public so she simplified her lyrics  and made them more general/accessible to make the songs more relatable to the average person(Gaga said as much in interviews at the time). I also see it as less so Gaga going back to her roots and revealing more about herself in a personal way and more so Gaga taking on a cowgirl persona to appeal to them more, I mean that runs through alot of the songs (Sinners Prayer, John Wayne, Ayo) and I see it more as Gaga's life filtered through a country/cowgirl lens because she wanted to get away from her Gaga persona during that era and because Gaga's roots were never in country music/she was never a cowgirl during her teenage years in NY.

And I see now that yes even though us little monsters might have already known some of the personal details expressed through the songs (like about her aunt, Gaga's connection to her aunt and how her Dad was tough on her) because of us being more tuned into Gaga and watching her interviews it is true that the GP most likely didn't and since this album was more so made for the GP as a way to introduce herself as "Stefani" to them(even if it was slightly calculated) it does make sense for her to do that.

Now whether it is her most personal album is to a degree subjective because there are arguments that could made made for Chromatica, ARTPOP, TFM and even BTW being her most personal work. I think for me personally the lyrics on Joanne being more general and some of the songs being about broader social topics stops me from seeing it as her most personal work but it is overall an undeniably personal album.

I also think the reason why ARTPOP, Joanne and Chromatica fans fight over which is best or which is most authentic so much is because all 3 had similar aims in trying to heal trauma, inner turmoil and pain. ARTPOP being about healing her pain from her hip injury, the music industry and personal pain, Joanne about healing her family trauma and Chromatica about trying to heal/dance through pain caused by fame, PTSD, trauma and her depression.

So that's my updated thoughts I'm still not really a fan of Joanne but I think I understand it better now

 

Edited 13 hours ago by imogen2133

[Oriane 22,382]

33 minutes ago, imogen2133 said:

@Ladle Ghoulash @Starmie25 @gagzus @Oriane @nATAH @gagacabana

Ok so there are too many posts for me to reply to so I will just do it here.

I have analyzed Joanne again and read all the posts and come to a better understanding now.

I would say at least almost half the album is personal to Gaga and the other half is more general but I know why.

Personal:

Diamond Heart- About her time as a go-go dancer in NYC when she was 19 and about how her Dad was tough on her growing up and overprotective due to how Joanne's death affected him.

Joanne-About Gaga's aunt and is essentially what Gaga's family and especially her dad would say to Joanne if they had more time with her before she passed.

John Wayne-Now this one is a bit iffy because I don't really think Gaga was ever really into cowboy types and we can see that in her dating history but it is also about falling for a bad boy type that is reckless and probably not good for Gaga which is something she explored before in songs like Judas and Bad Romance so I will reluctantly put it in this category.

Million Reasons-About how Gaga only needs one good reason to stay in a tumultuous relationship. Quite a general song in it's lyrics but it is hard to not see it as being about Taylor and I believe Gaga said as much in the 5ft2 documentary so I will place it here.

Sinners prayer-About how Gaga is flawed as a person but she still wants to be loved anyway in her relationships and how she is committed. Again quite general but Natali is mentioned in the 2nd verse/relationship with her boyfriend and it could easily be seen as Gaga being flawed and admitting her flaws which are caused from tough parenting by her Dad which was caused by Joanne's death.

Grigio Girls-About Gaga's close friend Sonya and how Gaga and her friends would drink to cope with Sonya's death and her happy memories of Sonya.

Less personal/more generalized tracks:

Ayo-About blowing off haters and pissing people off/being happy about pissing people off and comparing it to blowing off smoke but the lyrics are too repetitive here and general to be about Gaga specifically.

Dancin' In Circles-It is more generally about female m*sturbation and rubbing the pain out when a lover is not there and pretending they are there but again the lyrics are more general/conceptual.

Perfect Illusion-Now whether or not it is about Taylor is something that could be(and has been) argued back and fourth all day but I personally don't think it is, I don't think Taylor and Gaga ended things on bad terms really and the song was a mostly already completed demo by Kevin Parker before Gaga wrote on it anyway so it is hard for me to see it as deeply personal/about Taylor but again it is debatable.

Come To Mama-More broadly about a message about humanity needing to come together and love one another but most of the demo was written and done by Father John Misty(even though Gaga also wrote on it) so it is hard for me to really see it as Gaga's song or deeply personal.

Hey Girl-Similar to CTM it is more broadly about female solidarity, female friendships and women coming together, less personal.

Angel Down-Broadly about social injustice against black people and about the Treyvon Martin case but more so about larger societal issues then a song that is personal to Gaga(also applies to CTM and HG).

Just Another Day-I know Gaga said it is about NYC and is like if her and Mark knew each other as kids and there are shout outs to her friends but overall I see it more as a general song about staying positive and not letting negativity bother you then as a song with deeply personal lyrics.

Ok so I now also understand that the only song on the album about Joanne is the title track and that the album as a whole is not supposed to be about her but is more so dedicated to her.

Also in the sense of it being personal because Joanne is her middle name and because of her being affected by generational trauma and her Dad being tough on her due to Joanne's death I really only see that explored on Diamond Heart, Sinners Prayer and *maybe* John Wayne and if you wanted to see it as being about Gaga's struggles with fame you could read that into some of the songs if you want but I feel that is more interpretation then what Gaga intended but again the lyrics are general enough that you could if you wanted to. 

So I think that Gaga obviously intended to write personal material for the album and that was one of her main goals when making it but her larger intention/goal was to make an album that appealed to Middle America and the people who were turned off from her previously because of her "alien monster persona"(especially after ARTPOP) and she wanted to appeal more to the general public so she simplified her lyrics  and made them more general/accessible to make the songs more relatable to the average person(Gaga said as much in interviews at the time). I also see it as less so Gaga going back to her roots and revealing more about herself in a personal way and more so Gaga taking on a cowgirl persona to appeal to them more, I mean that runs through alot of the songs (Sinners Prayer, John Wayne, Ayo) and I see it more as Gaga's life filtered through a country/cowgirl lens because she wanted to get away from her Gaga persona during that era and because Gaga's roots were never in country music/she was never a cowgirl during her teenage years in NY.

And I see now that yes even though us little monsters might have already known some of the personal details expressed through the songs (like about her aunt, Gaga's connection to her aunt and how her Dad was tough on her) because of us being more tuned into Gaga and watching her interviews it is true that the GP most likely didn't and since this album was more so made for the GP as a way to introduce herself as "Stefani" to them(even if it was slightly calculated) it does make sense for her to do that.

Now whether it is her most personal album is to a degree subjective because there are arguments that could made made for Chromatica, ARTPOP, TFM and even BTW being her most personal work. I think for me personally the lyrics on Joanne being more general and some of the songs being about broader social topics stops me from seeing it as her most personal work but it is overall an undeniably personal album.

I also think the reason why ARTPOP, Joanne and Chromatica fans fight over which is best or which is most authentic so much is because all 3 had similar aims in trying to heal trauma, inner turmoil and pain. ARTPOP being about healing her pain from her hip injury, the music industry and personal pain, Joanne about healing her family trauma and Chromatica about trying to heal/dance through pain caused by fame, PTSD, trauma and her depression.

So that's my updated thoughts I'm still not really a fan of Joanne but I think I understand it better now

 

I appreciate that you're trying to understand and reconsidering the way you see the album and the story behind it!