Kazakhstan Bans Face Coverings, Muslim Women Asked To Embrace National Style

[princedeeblebleble 3,648]

20 hours ago, PartySick said:

I just cannot get behind that kind of thinking tbh.

I don't f*ck with the government being allowed to tell you what you can and can't wear, do, say, believe, etc.

Any time I've wanted religion to disappear it's about been about hoping society itself would progress and abandon the fairytales and backwards thinking. Not once have I ever thought it'd be right for laws to be made outlawing those beliefs and cultural practices.

That's where our disconnect lies

 

20 hours ago, PartySick said:

This whole part right heeeere.

I genuinely don't understand how "my husband tells me to dress this way" is bad (which we can all agree on) but "my government forbids me from dressing this way" is...good?  

Like, what part of that is empowering to women? Is it that the men dictating what they can and can't do are elected officials rather than members of their families or communities?

 

20 hours ago, PartySick said:

I don't think you're giving people enough credit tbh. 

Like I said, silly laws like this will only isolate communities as they entrench themselves out of defiance to unjust government rules but the best way to break the hold religion has on someone is to connect people with others who think differently. Those connections will be a little harder to make now.

Sis I'm begging you to see there are three options here:

1) Women are forced to wear head coverings

2) Women are forbidden from wearing head coverings

3) Women are free to wear what they want

And we are advocating for the third option  you don't get to say "they can't think for themselves so we get to dictate what they do" 'cause it makes you JUST AS BAD as the extremist men that won't let them leave the house without an approved outfit.

I find it as a start for more liberal ways of living, starting with a ban to maybe people being able to wear what they want in the future.

And honestly I'd even be up for a ban on religion if you wanna move in that direction. You give humans way too much credit thinking we'd grow out of one of our most basic ways of thinking and living. Forms of religion have been around since the dawn of time, its kind of an intergral part of how people explain the world to themselves, its how they cope and how they can accept and process their mortality. Just dying and there being nothing in the end is scary, not having a higher hope on which you can pray to in bad times is also scary, so no, as humans we probably will never fully give up on organised religions. 

Yea it sucks that they lose the ability to chose what to wear, but it's for modernization. I doubt you'd be super against it if it was the opposite where the government would force them to wear the religious garments.

[PartySick 172,545]

2 hours ago, princedeeblebleble said:

You give humans way too much credit thinking we'd grow out of one of our most basic ways of thinking and living.

Not really. Every generation is more secular than the last and fewer people than ever (ratio wise) identity with a major religion.

[Bronco 25,131]

3 hours ago, A Fried Egg said:

Everyone here (including immigrants) is protected by the law and have a right to be here. Nobody is chasing anybody out. The US is extremely corrupt compared to Europe. 

Gotta love classic European exceptionalism. Always thinking we're better than the Americans just because we're better at subtlety. 

Nevermind that Trump style political groups are making significant grounds in most European states with many poised to elect Trump styled or actual national socialist alligned parties &/or leaders by the end of this decade. Nevermind that many western european states have statistical proof of continued rises in hate crimes against migrant groups. Nevermind multiple recent incidents in multiple european countries where non-whites have been killed by police officers. Nevermind black NATO soldiers being attacked for their skin colour in countries like Estonia. Nevermind the anti-immigrant riots in multiple european nations in the last few years. 
 

[princedeeblebleble 3,648]

1 hour ago, PartySick said:

Not really. Every generation is more secular than the last and fewer people than ever (ratio wise) identity with a major religion.

Idk, lately I feel we're becoming more conservative and religious as time goes by.. Looking back on my younger queer days I had a bit more hope for society, but every year disappoints me more 

[PartySick 172,545]

1 hour ago, Bronco said:

Gotta love classic European exceptionalism. Always thinking we're better than the Americans just because we're better at subtlety. 

Nevermind that Trump style political groups are making significant grounds in most European states with many poised to elect Trump styled or actual national socialist alligned parties &/or leaders by the end of this decade. Nevermind that many western european states have statistical proof of continued rises in hate crimes against migrant groups. Nevermind multiple recent incidents in multiple european countries where non-whites have been killed by police officers. Nevermind black NATO soldiers being attacked for their skin colour in countries like Estonia. Nevermind the anti-immigrant riots in multiple european nations in the last few years. 
 

Yeah, I was thinking "aren't European politicians sweeping elections by using Trump's playbook or?"  

1 hour ago, princedeeblebleble said:

Idk, lately I feel we're becoming more conservative and religious as time goes by.. Looking back on my younger queer days I had a bit more hope for society, but every year disappoints me more 

Yeah, and it's 'cause of things like xenophobia and anti-immigrant sentiments causing people to elect far right bigots that crush formerly progressive societies

[Kayioshka 3,335]

Man, I don't think it's right tho... 

I'm an ex-muslim woman, from a secular branch of Islam, it's more an esoteric beliefs rather than traditional Islam (women in my family don't wear the hijab). It's a small shia branch that was oppressed by Sunnis. I could have become a bitter person due to the history of my ancestors, but I hate divisions. I'm not religious I have spirituality tho, but I still recognize myself in my ancestors history, anyway...

Yep, Islam has oppressive laws, as much as the other monotheistic religions, but it is the aim of religions... Oppressing yourself, repressing your body, to be a pure soul. It should be a choice to follow or not a religion. I know it is very political, but from another perspective, it can also give to ppl a moral guideline to follow, or a truth to believe in. It's also a philosophy. So it can be a comfortable belief too.

Sadly when you make it a state religion is a pretext to better manipulate people, and not something private between god and it's believers... Yep it's uncool.

However, can't we let woman decide if they want or not to wear this ?

I can understand that it is a way for them impose a new way of thinking, more modern, like Ataturk did in Turkey back in time... But Ataturk was a man of power, he totally rebuilt the whole country's ideology and myths. While idk if in this case, it won't create just more divisions ? To me secularism isn't about division, but liberty for everyone to practicise their beliefs and being safe.

Anyway, for the ones who talk about human rights, there are many, many things that our democracy doesn't respect. No matter if you're black, white, a woman, a man, straight, gay, etc... There are some things that aren't very right, and these elites try to divise us to make us weaker against these injustices. Until this day, I don't know a government that is clean, it's all about money and power. So even if there's countries that tend to imitate democracy, it doesn't mean that our countries are idealistic places.

[faysalaaa 5,336]

12 hours ago, A Fried Egg said:

You’re right, I think my choice of words was too harsh and only highlighting extreme cases. I think the violence I witnessed in certain households was etched into my mind since I was a child. I have also been treated kindly by most Muslim families that I have become friends with till this day. I’m against the religion (all the Abrahamic ones), not the people. 
I apologize if I come across as tyrannical. 

Im a Muslim Arab, and I have no issue with anyone here criticizing Islam or Muslims, but I want to make sure the criticism is accurate, and not coming from a bad place.

[Horny Chicken 10,935]

11 minutes ago, faysalaaa said:

Im a Muslim Arab, and I have no issue with anyone here criticizing Islam or Muslims, but I want to make sure the criticism is accurate, and not coming from a bad place.

I know that. I still appreciate that you’re one of the few members who’s willing to take part in civil debate rather than shouting matches. 

[faysalaaa 5,336]

10 hours ago, PartySick said:

Not really. Every generation is more secular than the last and fewer people than ever (ratio wise) identity with a major religion.

Its just entitled activists who give up on their values and turn into fascists because humans did not change during their lifetime lol

[faysalaaa 5,336]

8 hours ago, princedeeblebleble said:

Idk, lately I feel we're becoming more conservative and religious as time goes by.. Looking back on my younger queer days I had a bit more hope for society, but every year disappoints me more 

The world goes three steps forward, and one step back, and now we are living in the one step back. But the world is not actually moving backwards if you zoom out.

[PartySick 172,545]

1 minute ago, faysalaaa said:

Entitled activists who give up and turn into fascists because humans did not change during their lifetime lol

Let's just ban religion, I'm sure religious folks will have nothing to say about it and it definitely won't drive people deeper into their superstitions and isolated little pockets of people  

1 minute ago, faysalaaa said:

The world goes two step forward, and one step back, and now we are living in the one step back. But the world is not actually moving backwards if you zoom out.

It's so refreshing to see someone else understand this tbh.

We absolutely are in a position that we could backslide drastically but we haven't yet and we won't as long as we keep putting up a fight.

It's important to remember that society itself continues to progress but abusive politicians prey on the weakest traits and trends of the collective to take power and f*ck us up until we get pissed enough to rectify the issue.

[faysalaaa 5,336]

1 minute ago, PartySick said:

Let's just ban religion, I'm sure religious folks will have nothing to say about it and it definitely won't drive people deeper into their superstitions and isolated little pockets of people  

haha yeah and I think these people forget that we created religion to reflect us, so if we ban religion, we will create another form of system that will reflect the same harm religion is causing. Humans are the real issue (including seculars), not religion itself.
 

4 minutes ago, PartySick said:

It's so refreshing to see someone else understand this tbh.

We absolutely are in a position that we could backslide drastically but we haven't yet and we won't as long as we keep putting up a fight.

It's important to remember that society itself continues to progress but abusive politicians prey on the weakest traits and trends of the collective to take power and f*ck us up until we get pissed enough to rectify the issue.

And the truth is, whatever we are fighting for today is not for us, we wont be able to fully live it. Its mostly for the people that will come 100 years after us! We already won the privilege of living the freedom our ancestors fought for.

I know some people might read this and get depressed, but for me it calms me down, and makes me have realistic effective approach to life without overwhelming myself.

[monstrosity 3,979]

The amount of racism, sexism and Islamophobia displayed in this thread is truly truly terrifying 

[Roughhouse Dandy 13,614]

Seriously this whole thread is cancer and exhibits so much of the prejudice and bigotry people try to tell me doesn't exist on ggd. 

[Delulu Rogers 7,664]

As far as I know, face covering in a cultural practice and not an Islamic one. Nowhere in the Quran does it say to cover your face. So banning these types of garments are not anti religion or anti islam. 

Also, there are many other muslim countries that have done this as well so I find it interesting to see people claiming islamophia when muslim countries themselves are doing it.  

In terms of the West, it is important for immigrants to assimilate into society and respect the laws of the country for social peace and cohesion. Every country needs to protect its own culture, traditions (which is what Kazakstan is claiming to be doing) etc even if they are welcoming immigrants. Wearing a burqa does the exact opposite and those women more than likely hold beliefs that go against western values as well. In that case, why are they even moving to a western country?

Lastly, if people (like many liberals for exmaple) are okay with muslim countries banning bikinis, shorts, t-shirts etc in the name of "modesty" or "respecting cultural values" etc, then why can't the West do the same? It can't work one way but not the other. That's a double standard. Ideally all countries should allow people to wear what they want, but we also have to protect our own culture and values, especially if the other side is unyielding to participate in the same freedoms.