Biden authorizes Ukraine to use US-supplied missiles in Russia

[DopeEnigma 1,774]

3 hours ago, River said:

You westerns always cares about your own damned white ass while other people suffers and die from your own weapons and politics, Ukraine has been destroyed, thousands people are dead but somehow you care about yourself lol

privileged spoiled brats.

news flash:WWIII is already here, you guys just funds it for the last couple of years to keep it out of your America and European homes.

Finally Biden is doing something right but too little too late , it gad to be done on day one of the war.

Russia and Putin’s insane imperialistic aims started this war, wouldn’t that make him the privileged spoilt brat that’s led to so many dead including his own? Bit of an unfair and sweeping generalised statement blaming the West again, as if other countries aren’t problematic at all. 

[Bronco 25,063]

2 hours ago, FATCAT said:

This thread feels like a pre-WW2 “we have to appease the Germans or they’ll start the war!”

I mean that's been the West's policy since the 2014 Donbas & Crimea occupations tbf. 

Not really surprising that we're now at the "Oh wait, it won't stop at the Sudetenland occupation" part of repeating history and the "Oh ****, other people are now doing it as well" part. 

Ironically, there's a real chance that the Poland moment could easily be an invasion of Poland again 

[FATCAT 60,888]

4 minutes ago, Bronco said:

I mean that's been the West's policy since the 2014 Donbas & Crimea occupations tbf. 

Not really surprising that we're now at the "Oh wait, it won't stop at the Sudetenland occupation" part of repeating history and the "Oh ****, other people are now doing it as well" part. 

Ironically, there's a real chance that the Poland moment could easily be an invasion of Poland again 

Fun fact, Poland being the flashpoint is purely because its the only path without crossing a mountain. Europe needs to start beefing up defenses yesterday.  

[DopeEnigma 1,774]

7 minutes ago, Bronco said:

I mean that's been the West's policy since the 2014 Donbas & Crimea occupations tbf. 

Not really surprising that we're now at the "Oh wait, it won't stop at the Sudetenland occupation" part of repeating history and the "Oh ****, other people are now doing it as well" part. 

Ironically, there's a real chance that the Poland moment could easily be an invasion of Poland again 

I do agree, since 2014 I’ve been shocked at how Crimea even happened and nothing was done about it. There is great naivety there believing Putin would be anything else but untrustworthy. It should have been dealt with there and then and a clear stance made sooner. 

[DopeEnigma 1,774]

1 minute ago, FATCAT said:

Fun fact, Poland being the flashpoint is purely because its the only path without crossing a mountain. Europe needs to start beefing up defenses yesterday.  

They will be doing but there’s no way Putin attacks a NATO country or Russia will be dust in the sky pretty quickly. 

[FATCAT 60,888]

15 minutes ago, DopeEnigma said:

They will be doing but there’s no way Putin attacks a NATO country or Russia will be dust in the sky pretty quickly. 

I felt the same way about them stepping into Ukraine, yet here we are. We assume he's a rational actor, but maybe one day he won't see it that way.

[DopeEnigma 1,774]

12 minutes ago, FATCAT said:

I felt the same way about them stepping into Ukraine, yet here we are. We assume he's a rational actor, but maybe one day he won't see it that way.

It’s more tricky with Ukraine as they aren’t a part of NATO. 

[Bronco 25,063]

21 minutes ago, DopeEnigma said:

They will be doing but there’s no way Putin attacks a NATO country or Russia will be dust in the sky pretty quickly. 

Honestly without US support, NATO nations in Europe have a very patchy level of defence ranging from the UK/Poland/French and some other smaller eastern states which have maintained relatively strong standing armies (although the UK ****ed itself with austerity). And then the states like Germany which ran a defense policy till 2022 of "someone else will save us"

[DopeEnigma 1,774]

9 minutes ago, Bronco said:

Honestly without US support, NATO nations in Europe have a very patchy level of defence ranging from the UK/Poland/French and some other smaller eastern states which have maintained relatively strong standing armies (although the UK ****ed itself with austerity). And then the states like Germany which ran a defense policy till 2022 of "someone else will save us"

I do agree that more European countries need to contribute more towards collective security and there needs to be a fairer agreement on this. It can’t be expected only certain countries fit the bill especially when a country like Germany with a good economy could do more. 

[MOT 3,605]

Is this move not just about strengthening Ukraine's hand before Trump takes power and forces them to do a deal with Putin ?

[Bronco 25,063]

28 minutes ago, MOT said:

Is this move not just about strengthening Ukraine's hand before Trump takes power and forces them to do a deal with Putin ?

It's realisitcally too late to strengthen Ukraine's hand. Its come after the summer when conditions are best for combat pushes into enemy territory and after the Russians had a period of success in pushing further into Ukrainian territory. The winter period in Ukraine is very very difficult for land based combat movements, especially using artillery or any machinery really. 

So what it can do is allow the Ukranians the ability to slow down Russian reinforcement of captured areas, divert Russians into defending further inland and reprioritise land deployments etc. And hopefully they are able to sustain this until the Spring when it can be easier to make pushes to reclaim land. 

The best case scenario, it allows Kyiv to hold out until the Spring offensive can start and by then they'll have been resupplied by European neighbours and be able to go for awhile without US support. 
But it is very much too late for any real benefit

[Bebe 17,289]

14 hours ago, King of the Fall said:

Russia does not need to use nukes to respond to the United States with powerful conventional weapons, they have already said they will if we give Ukraine long range missiles. How is letting Ukraine use missiles inside Russia going to help them win the ground war anyway?

Russian citizens are only going to be stiffened in their resolve to support the war if we start striking Russian territory because it makes the west look like a threat. You clearly know very little about Russian history if you think otherwise. I want to see Ukraine survive as a state, not get wiped from the face of the earth beccause they refused to concede territory that they cant retake anyway. We already gave them all the financial and military aid we could and it did not result in them retaking any of their lost territory, in fact the 2023 counter offensive was a complete disaster.

You some awfully comfortable about the prospect of WWIII starting for no other reason than "We can't let Russia win in Ukraine" I am a realist and think in terms of avoiding the worst possible outcome which means freezing this conflict as soon as possible and avoiding the loss of yet more Ukranian territory and potentially WWIII

Russia doesn’t want a war with the United States. Their red lines have continuously moved as the world has acted against their illegal invasion.

Ukraine called Russia’s bluff when it liberated occupied regions claimed by Russia, when it sank 1/3 of the Black Sea fleet, when it used short range missiles to strike targets in Russia near Kharkiv and when the Ukraine army invaded Russia itself. This entire conflict has been Russia drawing “red lines” and then doing nothing when they are crossed.

We have already seen significant political pressure within Russia to end the conflict - there was even close to an attempted coup during the Wagner group rebellion.

I am absolutely not comfortable with the idea of WW3. Which is why I find Russia’s continued aggression and land grabs so concerning. Whose next? Belarus? Estonia? Latvia? Lithuania? What about Poland? There is one nuclear power that is pushing the world closer to a global conflict and it is Russia.

Russia is currently engaging in intelligence operations, cyber warfare and actual warfare with the intention of destabilising Europe/NATO, shifting the global powers and rebuilding a Soviet-Style empire. The violence doesn’t stop at Ukraine, the deaths don’t stop at Ukraine. 

The framing of the US/NATO providing weapons to Ukraine and allowing them to actually use them in strikes targeting bases within Russia as some escalation is purely Russian propaganda. Russia has no problems with utilising missiles and boots on ground from foreign countries within Ukrainian territory. You are not being a realist here, you are parroting Russian propaganda that the West is the one provoking Russia and that propaganda is being spread to limit support and aid to Ukraine. 

If we are being honest about the success and failures of Ukraine in their efforts, we need to acknowledge that the assistance they have been provided has come with conditions. It is very difficult to defend your territory when the other side is able to place short and long range missile launchers at the edges of their borders to shoot within your territory while YOU are unable to strike into their territory to destroy said missile launches.

It is difficult when one side can prepare troops, weapons and organise supplies on one side of the border and the other side is unable to act to disrupt or destroy these military targets.

I’m not calling for NATO troops on the ground, I’m not calling for a refusal for the use of sanctions and other diplomatic measures to bring an end to the war - what I am saying is that Russia’s “red lines” are bullshit, they have already shown it’s bullshit and the accusation that the US is escalating this conflict by allowing Ukraine to use the weapons they have to properly defend their territory is nothing but Kremlin talking points.

You say the best solution would be to  “Freeze this conflict as soon as possible and avoiding the loss of yet more Ukranian territory”. I doubt there is anyone here that would disagree. How would you suggest we do this?

The Kremlin have also shown no interest in ending this conflict without the outcome being complete destruction of the Ukrainian state. Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said it himself: “Russia is only interested in negotiations that result in the removal of the current Ukrainian government from power”.

I would love for there to be an easy, simple diplomatic solution to this conflict that would see an end to the war but as long as we have RUSSIA escalating by invading sovereign countries, committing war crimes, flying missiles/drones over NATO airspace, enlisting states such as North Korea to assist with weapons and troops and threatening the use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine it will be hard to do.

With Russia refusing to end the conflict in Ukraine without the end being a non-existent Ukraine or a crippled Ukraine beholden to Russia, the best Ukrainian allies can do is provide Ukraine the tools and support needed to fight back against Russian aggression and escalation. That includes allowing them to use missiles to destroy military targets in Russian territory.

Let’s also be real that this move comes after Russia has escalated the conflict and employed NK troops to try to retake the Kursk region (within Russia) from the Ukraine. This region has been seen as a major bargaining chip for the Ukraine. I hope an end to this conflict comes sooner rather than later, but it is Russia prolonging this conflict not the Ukraine and its allies.

[SharkmanthaC 115,045]

11 hours ago, PartySick said:

I'm not scared of you!

Time stamped.

[andreas85 400]

The fact is that any political decision that weakens Russia is a good thing for Ukraine and the West in general. In the end Putin is the biggest threat also to Russia and he can always choose to stop this illegal war and remove Russian forces from Ukraine. Giving any concessions to Russia would be a fatal mistake at this point when so much has been sacrificed already. The fact that Putin is begging help from North Korea shows how weak and desperate the Russian government already is. Still, Putin's Russia is an existential threat to all of its neighbors and Europe as long as it still exists.

[homomo 23,883]

This isn’t a good thing and anyone saying the opposite is blinded by their own political agenda. This is actually scary and disgusting