Official Joker: Folie À Deux Review & Discussion Thread

[Maarck 167]

I watched it last night...I liked it. I'm not saying it as a fan of Lady Gaga, in fact I didn't like House of Gucci very much.

I found JFAD interesting, despite more than two hours of film, it didn't bore me and the plot in my opinion is compelling, it's a completely different film and much more introspective than the previous one.

Many say: "oh my god how disgusting it is a musical!" And I don't agree. There are many sung scenes but they are not cloying or inserted at random. They have a logical sense.

Many people complain for the sake of complaining.

[Naufri 7,158]

8 hours ago, TimotheeChalamet said:

Just came back from the teather. The hate is exaggerated and so unnecessary to me, because the movie itself is not bad at all. I agree with Harley's character being a bit underexolored and that there's a little going on story-wise, but I didn't find it boring and both Gaga and Phoenix did an amazing job. The cinematography is good and the musical aspect works. Could they cut out a couple of numbers? Yes, but to say that this is trash and a whole flop is insane. In other words, not a masterpiece but not a razzie either. 

Warning: this is my own opinion, you're allowed to hate this movie all you want. 

I would say that it's not a movie that bad that you need to hate It, but It has so much wasted potential that you leave a little bit angry, I can understand the over the top reactions of some people.

[Juanlittlem 41,515]

6 hours ago, DavidLuis198 said:

I know how it's frustrating how they can't seem to stop singing the whole movie, I liked the movie and sometimes could not bear more songs, but I disagree with this scene being pointless

  Reveal hidden contents

Arthur has no one in the world and really loves (or deludes himself into thinking he loves) Lee and sees in her a fantasy of beginning a family and maybe having a normal life. Then she leaves him when he doesn’t want to be Joker and he's desperately trying to save their relation, is like those scenes in movies when a guy runs to the airport to catch his love interest before she goes away to somewhere, is his big romantic gesture to get his girl back.

This scene also shows how Arthur is kinda dumb and innocent to think Lee likes him, even when she abandons him he doesn’t realize she was using him all along and that she liked Joker, not Arthur.

It also mirrors the earlier scene where Arthur finds out the Lee lied to him and she sings Close To You to him as a way of winning his trust / love back

 

And you know what those scenes have in common? Exactly, they didnt need to be musical moments

[hELXIG 41,585]

On 10/4/2024 at 10:19 PM, LilyLark said:

Yes. I think the advertising was super misleading, and kind of led the audience to expect an entirely different film.

If you saw the first one, it's still worth seeing imo.

Went to see it tonight and it was alright. It wasn't bad but it wasn't amazing either. The pacing in the middle felt verry slow (lots of the same looking scenes and a lot of dialogue without much happening around it) and I was finding it hard to pay attention, but that could be a me problem tbh. I liked the ideas in the film but something felt off about how it was presented and I can't put my finger on it... like I was trying to 'figure it out' the whole time, but not in an exciting, mysterious kinda way. And I know a lot of people hated the ending but I actually liked it  

I think tbh everybody would've been a lot happier if it was more of a Harley origin story with the same feel as the first one, taking an inside look at how she loses her mind and falls in love with him with the court case being the side story. Her character was well done but I think we were all waiting for her to really let loose and go crazy. Seeing Gaga wide eyed and manic and powerful

Spoiler

I was actually very confused a lot of the time about if what was happening was real or a hallucination. Like Lee  getting let into his cell.. I was convinced that wasn't real because why would they let her in to solitary confinement?? But apparently it was? And I think they were going for the mysterious, never quite sure, audience makes up their own mind kinda thing but it felt confusing instead of mysterious and fun to work out, or like it was a twist. And when they were outside after she started the fire. That scene felt like a hallucination and he was gonna snap back out of it.. or maybe did snap back out of it.. but then it was real? I guess? Because later on it was mentioned in a throwaway line

I like that Lee was manipulating him the whole time but I'm still confused as to how much, and for exactly what reason. She fell in love with him as the Joker and fell out of love when he admitted the Joker was never real and he's Arthur Fleck, so was she just being manipulative to try and win him over/make him love her back? Or was he like an experiment to her because she's a psychologist? Or both? 

I like that throughout the film Arthur was struggling to differentiate himself from the Joker and by being exposed to all his trauma, and finally understanding and accepting it at the end, he realised that Joker was never real and he is Arthur

And I really liked the ending. I watched the first movie a couple weeks ago and was like omgggg he was the one who killed Batman's parents. But then I was like wait.. how is he so much older? That'd make the joker like 60 in the Batman universe. But then at the end the other guy kills him and becomes the real Joker. So that guy is the Joker in the Batman universe all along, not Arthur, but Arthur actually created him in many ways. I was wondering why they kept focussing on him throughout the movie and he always seemed so off/psycho. That made so much sense. When he cut his face I gasped with realisation

And I kinda like that the tortured character of Arthur Fleck had a whole arc that humanised him. The first movie you feel so bad for him because of the way the world treated him. It drove him insane, and you could understand why. In the second movie he comes to terms with everything and dies as the real Arthur. It felt like a good close to his story

I know some people had a problem with them making him so humanised in the first film because 'the Joker is just some crazy psycho, we aren't supposed to empathise with him'. Well now you've got your real Joker who is just some crazy psycho that we don't care about. That guy felt like the 'real' Joker in a way

 

Like I LIKED all these things, I liked the movie, but at the same time whenever something was revealed wasn't quite sure if I had read it right and that made it hard to keep up with

 

Also my name is Lee spelt differently so that was kinda weird for me  

[Oriane 19,772]

So here's a review that I wrote a few days ago. I originally wrote it in French and translated it, this is much harder to do than writing directly in English, so I'm sorry if some of it doesn't make sense

 

I was particularly excited about this film, because I really liked the first one and I love Gaga.

Then the rumors of the film being a musical arrived, and that annoyed a lot of people. I don't like musicals, but nevertheless trusted Todd Phillips' vision. It was obvious that he knew what he was doing. Then I heard that the musical part would be more like A Clockwork Orange, so not so much like a musical.

Finally, the film was shown in festival, and the negative reviews started to come. However, in all of this, there were people who, on the contrary, had loved the film. Rather than a terrible movie, it seemed that we were dealing with something very polarizing. On which side would I find myself?

Well, I loved it!

It's very different from the first, it takes more risks and experiments more on certain levels. Getting out of it, I had the impression that the first film was very bland and conventional compared to it, even though it was already an original take on the Joker's story. It's the kind of film that doesn't follow a classic plot, so I understand that it's harder for some people to get into it, but it's precisely the kind of film that I like. I've seen people prefer the first film, others the second, but one review I read summed it up well: "If you liked the first film, you won't necessarily like the second one. But if you didn't like the first film, there's little chance that you'll like the second one."

A major problem is that Harley Quinn was sold as a main character when she's more of a supporting role.  Yet, by analyzing their relationship a little, the (lack of) character development and the presence of music makes perfect sense. Joker and Lee develop an instant, obsessive love, which starts because of a deep sense of lacking something. On Joker's side, the frustration of being misunderstood, of having lacked love all his life, and the impression of finding someone who, finally, sees him and loves him for who he is. On Lee's side, a feeling of emptiness, the desire to meet someone who will give meaning to her life, and she finally feels like she exists through Joker.

But all this is based on first impressions and lies. After all, Joker and Lee barely know each other. Childhood memories/traumas quickly evoked, a shared love for the music they listened to growing up, and boom, they fall in love. And the music, that has disturbed so many viewers, makes perfect sense. It's no coincidence that the music is there in each of their interactions.  When there is nothing left to say to each other, there is still music, as if it could fix everything, and the more it comes back, the more the gap between them widens. There are maybe two or three musical scenes that I would have removed. Gaga also does a very good job in her singing to distinguish between the real and the fantasized scenes.

I also understand Gaga's need to release a companion album featuring the songs from the film, saying that she wanted to keep exploring her character. My opinion is that the songs heard in the film (amateur singing, broken voice, dark instrumentation) are from Joker's point of view, a broken character who is trying to reconnect with the music he grew up with. Harlequin is Lee's vision: more cheerful, danceable music, like Joker when he arrived on Murray's set, with more angry and sad passages, following the strong but childish emotions that Harley goes through.

Joaquin is also very good (I didn't understand the negative reviews about his acting), I found him terrifying and very close to other Joker performances when he's wearing the outfit. As for Gaga, it's probably her best performance so far, I got into the character and forgot that it was her behind Lee.

There is one point in particular that disappoints a lot of people. At first I was a little disturbed by the development of the character, but the more I think about it, the more I accept and admire the message. The first film was an original adaptation that defied the expectations that the public had towards the character of Joker, and the second film does that again, but on our expectations towards the character that the first film showed us. Forget what you think you know about Arthur Fleck and the experience will be much more enjoyable. Don't go see the film expecting badass Joker/Harley Quinn wreaking havoc in Gotham. The way that the film criticises us spectators is not even subtle, because Arthur makes direct reference to it: after all, who can claim to really know him? Not his mother, not his old friends, not the psychiatrists, not even Lee, and not even us who are only there for the show.

Seeing everyone react so violently to the film is actually funny to watch. They're doing exactly what the film expected them to do. True performance art.

[LastNight 5,678]

Still so surprised at the huge negative reaction. I feel like I watched a different movie. I really, really enjoyed it, I thought so much of it was brilliantly done and I was entertained throughout.

It clearly has flaws, and I totally understand why people wouldn’t like it, but some of the reactions are so extreme. There are some objectively bad movies, but even with its weaknesses I wouldn’t say JFAD is “bad” at all. There are a lot of highlights, a lot of things that work beautifully, and there’s not a bad acting performance in the bunch. A lot more has to go wrong for something to be a “bad” movie I think.

 

1 hour ago, Oriane said:

Seeing everyone react so violently to the film is actually funny to watch. They're doing exactly what the film expected them to do. True performance art.

Love this point! The more I reflect on the movie and the response to it, the more brilliant I find it. The film has provoked something and it’s really interesting to think about how an audience’s relationship to something is reflected in the film, and then again in people’s reaction to said film.

The idea of it being performance art has really struck me, and feels so in line with Gaga and the broader themes she has explored throughout her career. 

[Guest]

https://x.com/scheises/status/1842543662900670650?t=R4st7ri0K5oq8hdll2UQFg&s=19

 

[DavidLuis198 839]

8 hours ago, Juanlittlem said:

And you know what those scenes have in common? Exactly, they didnt need to be musical moments

I agree, but that was the craziness of the director of doing a musical

[maymay 284]

I went and saw it last night and my expectations were below the crust of the earth due to what I had heard about it. I ended up loving it! I thought it was really good and a nice follow-up to the story! Was it NECESSARY to make a sequel? No! Did I think it was worth the watch? Yes! Of course, it wasn't flawless. There were definitely issues and it absolutely wasn't AS good as the first one, but what's the point in nitpicking when I can just enjoy the movie? Like, my fave came out with a movie AND a new album in the span of one week. I have no complaints. So what do people hate so much about this movie? Are they turned off of it because it's a musical? What do you think?

[androiduser 7,438]

1 minute ago, maymay said:

Like, my fave came out with a movie AND a new album in the span of one week. I have no complaints.

this is why your opinion is biased. To the general public it's just a movie starring two actors, somebody's fave doesn't make a difference to them.

[nATAH 42,233]

the split reviews for sure have me hesitant about paying a whole movie ticket for something i might hate

i'm gunna wait til it's out on streaming lol but i'm looking forward to making my own judgement

[Jase 13,043]

"my expectations were below the crust of the earth" just sent me

Caught it this morning. Adored it. A lot of bitterness being absolutely screamed from the rooftops coming from comic book stans and casuals who wanted more of the same/extreme violence. 

[andy232000 9,870]

They destroyed what the Joker represents and took away the dignity of the people who support him. Yes, most people only care about sensationalism and about the murderous character; the movie attempted to make this point, but it never lands. 

The first film constructs Joker as the total antagonistic extreme Arthur reaches when a society neglects him. People love him because he is a representation of many like him. The second film, instead of saying “hey how about we put sensationalism and entertainment aside for a minute to remember that there is an actual human being underneath this act”, they went about it by saying Joker, and everything he represents (the anger and the oppressed), are pathetic and a bunch of losers. 

conceptually the movie had a good social commentary. In execution it does not work because they focused on the wrong things. We saw Arthur’s descend into madness in the first film, this film needed to be his ascend into sanity, and shredding the Joker persona, not out of disgust, but out of respect and help to those who felt seen and could follow a similar dark path as him. It would’ve fixed everything. Seeing Arthur battle with his internal conflict of “Am I the villain?”, “is Joker me?”, in a much more explicit way would’ve humanized him without humiliating him 

Joker is a figure that had to be deconstructed, but not by un-dignifying him and mopping the floor with him, but by transforming him from a martyir into a cautionary tale. 

Edited October 5 by andy232000

[Reality 71,858]

Heading out to see Joker 2 now  

I'm so f*cking nervous, I just hope I end up thinking it's not as bad as people are making it out to be. I'll post another comment when I've come back and collected my thoughts 

[tyler k 4,740]

the marketing was misleading. 

there's kinda no plot outside of Arthur's trial. 

Gaga is severely underused. 

Edited October 5 by tyler k