UN adopts resolution demanding Gaza ceasefire after US abstains

[Roughhouse Dandy 13,860]

5 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Well at least you get a pass, because I find it funny when white people in America talk about decolonization abroad but forget that they're living on stolen land 

In general I don't believe in that though. I think it's better to focus on addressing injusticies and inequalities today rather than trying to relitigate the past.

No amount of "decolonization" will bring the 10M+ natives killed back from the dead.

I get that and agree there's nothing that can be done to bring the fallen back. 

In nations like America where things aren't actively burning, I believe the changes should be brought on incrementally to retain a sense of equilibrium. But right now, Palestine is crumbling so there's no better time for big change before its rebuilt. 

Just to restate my position and potentially clarify: I want what would bring the least death. I want what leads to the best outcome for the people on the ground. I don't want every Israeli citizen to pack up in the night and be forced out. I want the dissolution of the Israeli government and an installation of figures that represent everyone there with a focus and favor to the population that has been abused for decades so that the disenfranchised get the justice and representation they deserve. 

[River 128,608]

5 hours ago, Aren said:

What about the hostages? This war could end today if Hamas released all the hostages.

Netanyahu knows that if he brings back the hostages, he will not have an excuse for this war anymore and he will have to face elections, which he might likely lose.

He doesn't care about them, they are a problem for him, not a solution.

[Natalia Kills 428]

Probably the right choice. While I would take the European/UK stance on this issue generally, I think the US is making a fair case here. There's some logic that the best hope for Palestine is Israel getting the hostages back since that weakens the popular cause for conflict. But it is a slim line of logic though.

The problem Netanyahu has inflicted on himself is that he's fought terrorism by enabling more of it and has lost power. That's going to cause long-term issues for Israel as children impacted by the attacks grow up seeking revenge and are easily groomed by terrorist factions. The land settling is equally concerning.

That said, I don't agree with the justification of Hamas' actions at all and need to be equally condemned. I do feel that Hamas shares responsibility for the death of innocent Palestinians with its October attack, a ceasefire ought to involve Hamas being replaced. In particular, their relationship as a proxy partner of Iran is a real security concern. 

On a side note, I noticed how significantly fired up social media gets about this (plus the amount of misinformation on both sides) and how it's causing discontent in western societies. I do wonder if any foreign interference is at play from parties like China and Russia, and the West is being somewhat exploited.

[Dennis 8,391]

3 hours ago, Roughhouse Dandy said:

Just to restate my position and potentially clarify: I want what would bring the least death. I want what leads to the best outcome for the people on the ground. I don't want every Israeli citizen to pack up in the night and be forced out. I want the dissolution of the Israeli government and an installation of figures that represent everyone there with a focus and favor to the population that has been abused for decades so that the disenfranchised get the justice and representation they deserve. 

I respect that you want something that ends all the bloodbath. I agree. However I do not believe that the dissolution of Israel is that solution.

First they are a nuclear power and they want their own country. If you try to disband a country by military force, that is in worst case a genocide, and in best case, a violation of the U.N charter which calls for the respect of all member states territorial integrity.

And let's say we don't care about international law, again they are a nuclear country with a powerful military. Telling Palestinians they should aim to liberate Palestine "from the River to the Sea" and abolish Israel, is basically locking them in an unwinnable war where they pay a much heavier price than the Israelis.

And let's say hypothetically, you manage to get Israel abolished. 2/3 of Israelis are NON-EUROPEANS. That is for the most part Palestinians (20%)  and Mizrahi Jews (45%) whose ancestors lived in the middle east for centuries, and were persecuted/kicked out of other countries such as Yemen for example. You'd be basically depriving them of the only place where they as middle easterners, can have full protection and self-determination in the Middle East.

Then who's to say that the government of a unified Palestinian state won't be Hamas or something like that? Hamas won the election in 2007. In 1948, the first President of Palestine government in Gaza was Amin-Al-Husseini, a nazi collaborator who recruited troops for Hitler. So you have risk of extremism both on the Israeli and Palestinian side.

So while I want Palestinians to have their sovereignity and their own state, I'm not gonna ignore the legitimate concerns for Jews in the middle east, especially Mizrahi Jews who are as indigenous to the region as the Palestinians.

That's why I think only a 2 state solution can work.

 

 

 

[Roughhouse Dandy 13,860]

5 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I respect that you want something that ends all the bloodbath. I agree. However I do not believe that the dissolution of Israel is that solution.

First they are a nuclear power and they want their own country. If you try to disband a country by military force, that is in worst case a genocide, and in best case, a violation of the U.N charter which calls for the respect of all member states territorial integrity.

And let's say we don't care about international law, again they are a nuclear country with a powerful military. Telling Palestinians they should aim to liberate Palestine "from the River to the Sea" and abolish Israel, is basically locking them in an unwinnable war where they pay a much heavier price than the Israelis.

And let's say hypothetically, you manage to get Israel abolished. 2/3 of Israelis are NON-EUROPEANS. That is for the most part Palestinians (20%)  and Mizrahi Jews (45%) whose ancestors lived in the middle east for centuries, and were persecuted/kicked out of other countries such as Yemen for example. You'd be basically depriving them of the only place where they as middle easterners, can have full protection and self-determination in the Middle East.

Then who's to say that the government of a unified Palestinian state won't be Hamas or something like that? Hamas won the election in 2007. In 1948, the first President of Palestine government in Gaza was Amin-Al-Husseini, a nazi collaborator who recruited troops for Hitler. So you have risk of extremism both on the Israeli and Palestinian side.

So while I want Palestinians to have their sovereignity and their own state, I'm not gonna ignore the legitimate concerns for Jews in the middle east, especially Mizrahi Jews who are as indigenous to the region as the Palestinians.

That's why I think only a 2 state solution can work.

 

 

 

From my understanding, Hamas was elected because they were the only group that wasn't in Israel's pocket and vowed to take action against them. 

It's also worth noting that the majority of the current population of Palestine, before this current destruction, wasn't even old enough to vote them in. 

As for the specifics in the hypotheticals you brought up, I've been talking about big picture ideals. I'm not going to pretend I have the answers to make for a peaceful transfer of power. All I have the energy to say for right now is they took the land through violence so unfortunately if some violence occurs to take the land back and install a government that will work for ALL the people there who will aim for an ultimately peaceful existence, it'd make sense. 

[bpmMonkey 7,832]

9 hours ago, Bambino said:

You're either naive or don't know history for saying that any Israeli government is less worse than the current one  

As for the antisemtisim card, save it!

Babes, apparently you don’t really know how to read and comprehend or just choose not to do so. Your antisemitism lies in you saying that the entire country makes these decisions and not differentiating citizens from government. 
It’s important to criticize what’s happening and pushing on responsibilities, but people like you just muddle the discussion with half-as*ed polemic. 
 

save it 😊

[Bambino 24,366]

2 hours ago, bpmMonkey said:

Babes, apparently you don’t really know how to read and comprehend or just choose not to do so. Your antisemitism lies in you saying that the entire country makes these decisions and not differentiating citizens from government. 
It’s important to criticize what’s happening and pushing on responsibilities, but people like you just muddle the discussion with half-as*ed polemic. 
 

save it 😊

I sincerely don't give a **** about your accusations. Let that be a ****ing base for your responses to me from now on.

Luckily, I'm not some white dumb, ignorant twink getting his information and share of news from CNN or BBC on Palestine-Israel conflict. You don't live under occupation, you don't know what it's like to live under occupation, you don't know what how it feels to have your dignity and basic human rights challenged and taken away from you because a certain group of people think they're superior than you.

If anybody is muddling the discussion, it's you who's trying to silence people with fake antisemitism accusations, but like I said, I'm not ignorant enough to let you manipulate this and I don't give a **** like I said.

So yeah, you save it.

[Bambino 24,366]

8 hours ago, Roughhouse Dandy said:

From my understanding, Hamas was elected because they were the only group that wasn't in Israel's pocket and vowed to take action against them. 

It's also worth noting that the majority of the current population of Palestine, before this current destruction, wasn't even old enough to vote them in. 

As for the specifics in the hypotheticals you brought up, I've been talking about big picture ideals. I'm not going to pretend I have the answers to make for a peaceful transfer of power. All I have the energy to say for right now is they took the land through violence so unfortunately if some violence occurs to take the land back and install a government that will work for ALL the people there who will aim for an ultimately peaceful existence, it'd make sense. 

Hamas was elected in 2006 in the Palestinian territories (West Bank and Gaza) and a unity government was formed between Hamas and other parties, particularly rival Fatah. However, in June 2007, Hamas wanted to take complete control in Gaza and most Fatah officials in Gaza were either taken prisoners, executed, or expelled by Hamas. This resulted in a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah. The conflict ended in dissolving the unity government, and thus two governments are now ruling over Palestine, one in the West Bank, ruled by the Palestinian Authority, and one in Gaza, ruled by Hamas.

That is also when Israel started its blockade on Gaza, shortly after Hamas took over there.

[alsemanche 97,825]

You know what, I just wrote a huge post but some of y'all are truly too hopeless so I won't ever bother.

Free Palestine. End the Zionist occupation.  Those are the only things that matter, whether you agree or not.

[Roughhouse Dandy 13,860]

37 minutes ago, Bambino said:

Hamas was elected in 2006 in the Palestinian territories (West Bank and Gaza) and a unity government was formed between Hamas and other parties, particularly rival Fatah. However, in June 2007, Hamas wanted to take complete control in Gaza and most Fatah officials in Gaza were either taken prisoners, executed, or expelled by Hamas. This resulted in a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah. The conflict ended in dissolving the unity government, and thus two governments are now ruling over Palestine, one in the West Bank, ruled by the Palestinian Authority, and one in Gaza, ruled by Hamas.

That is also when Israel started its blockade on Gaza, shortly after Hamas took over there.

Mkay cool. A huge portion of the living Palestinian population wasn't old enough to vote for them. And even if they were, whoever their government is, it's still Free Palestine and End the Occupation by any means necessary. 

[Bambino 24,366]

6 minutes ago, Roughhouse Dandy said:

Mkay cool. A huge portion of the living Palestinian population wasn't old enough to vote for them. And even if they were, whoever their government is, it's still Free Palestine and End the Occupation by any means necessary. 

It was actually the only legislative elections to ever be held in Palestine so far. No elections were held since that one.

[Roughhouse Dandy 13,860]

12 minutes ago, Bambino said:

It was actually the only legislative elections to ever be held in Palestine so far. No elections were held since that one.

Thanks for the info. That reaffirms my case to me 

[bpmMonkey 7,832]

3 hours ago, Bambino said:

I sincerely don't give a **** about your accusations. Let that be a ****ing base for your responses to me from now on.

Luckily, I'm not some white dumb, ignorant twink getting his information and share of news from CNN or BBC on Palestine-Israel conflict. You don't live under occupation, you don't know what it's like to live under occupation, you don't know what how it feels to have your dignity and basic human rights challenged and taken away from you because a certain group of people think they're superior than you.

If anybody is muddling the discussion, it's you who's trying to silence people with fake antisemitism accusations, but like I said, I'm not ignorant enough to let you manipulate this and I don't give a **** like I said.

So yeah, you save it.

You go gurl, proud of u. 

[Bambino 24,366]

Just now, bpmMonkey said:

You go gurl, proud of u. 

Can't say the same about you.