Zara Larsson: "People are really quick to diminish the success of a pop artist"

[King of the Fall 3,811]

6 minutes ago, Night Vision said:

BRIT Awards 2023:

Artist of the Year

Male nominees - 5

Female nominees - 0

Grammys 2018 -

I think most people can agree that Ed was not the deserving winner here.

Did your rigor motis set in during the 35 minutes it took to get these examples?

First of all I was not talking about the Brit Awards but rather the Grammy's and secondly, you have used one year to try and prove a point, if the awards were always structured like that I would agree with what you are trying to say and yeah Ed Sheeran was not a deserving winner, I totally agree with you there. The real injustice is the repeated snubbing of black artists in major categories but lets not open that can of worms.

[jaXXXon 1,524]

Well Zara should put her feminist views aside and look at how most women view attractive men as those who wear a suit and/or regular clothes and those who do not are far from the ones getting the most attention from women. I'm sure if it was considered as attractive for women to have a man be in glitter and glamour without pinpointing his sexuality and vice versa there would be way more men doing the most to look good and women doing the least. 

[Starmie25 13,999]

Its crazy how so many indie/alternative acts be dropping unapologetically pop sounding music, but it gets dubbed as well, indie or alternative. It's weird lol.

[Night Vision 3,050]

43 minutes ago, 4th Street said:

First of all I was not talking about the Brit Awards but rather the Grammy's and secondly, you have used one year to try and prove a point, if the awards were always structured like that I would agree with what you are trying to say and yeah Ed Sheeran was not a deserving winner, I totally agree with you there. The real injustice is the repeated snubbing of black artists in major categories but lets not open that can of worms.

Well you asked for examples of awards organisations treating female and male artists differently, and that's what you got. You asked for recent examples, that's what you got. The BRIT's are just one example. If you are talking about the Grammy's in particular, there's a wealth of statistics and information out there on their lack of support for female artists and artists of colour. Perhaps the Grammy's has an issue with the fact that the Recording Academy (the voters) is overwhelmingly male and overwhelmingly white. If using one year as an example isn't good enough for you I'd be glad to give you the information on their voting record from previous years.

Here's an excerpt of some research that was done into this in 2018 published by Refinery29 -

Spoiler

 

"Then, on the Thursday before the ceremony, a study was released by Dr. Stacy L. Smith and the Annenberg Inclusion Initiative, that revealed how exceptionally underrepresented women are in music. Among the statistics was a look at Grammy nominees, of which women only made up 9.3% from 2013 to 2018. Or, as the study breaks it down, "This is a gender ratio of 9.7 males to every 1 female." Less than 10% of the artists nominated for Record of the Year or Album of the Year, the Grammy's two flagship awards, were female. Those are bad optics for the Grammys as a whole, and they were only enhanced at the 2018 Grammys by an Album of the Year nomination field with one female artist nominee (Lorde) and a Record of the Year category with zero female artists."

 

Here's a graph that extends that research from 2013 up to 2022:

Spoiler

I'm speaking as a male who works in the industry, I've seen firsthand the disparity between the treatment of female artists and male artists, particularly when it comes to financial contractual negotiations, particularly situations such as booking fees for festival shows (the comparison between what female artists are paid versus what male artists are paid despite the fact they often have higher billing on the line-up and a larger commercial draw and fanbase), and it's not a coincidence that the majority of the lawyers, agents, and live promoters in the industry who decide and negotiate these fees are male, and have been known to take a higher percentage cut than they do with male artists. The industry is riddled with sexism in all levels, and that's largely due to the fact that behind the scenes it is still heavily white male dominated. To suggest that voting bodies such as the Recording Academy, as large (and severely lacking in diversity) as they are, has no effect on the outcome of awards recognition simply because you can't think of any examples off the top of your head and you think that everything looks fair because there's lots of successful pop girls is wilfully ignorant or naive at best.

[King of the Fall 3,811]

32 minutes ago, Night Vision said:

Well you asked for examples of awards organisations treating female and male artists differently, and that's what you got. You asked for recent examples, that's what you got. The BRIT's are just one example. If you are talking about the Grammy's in particular, there's a wealth of statistics and information out there on their lack of support for female artists and artists of colour. Perhaps the Grammy's has an issue with the fact that the Recording Academy (the voters) is overwhelmingly male and overwhelmingly white. If using one year as an example isn't good enough for you I'd be glad to give you the information on their voting record from previous years.

Here's an excerpt of some research that was done into this in 2018 published by Refinery29 -

  Hide contents

 

"Then, on the Thursday before the ceremony, a study was released by Dr. Stacy L. Smith and the Annenberg Inclusion Initiative, that revealed how exceptionally underrepresented women are in music. Among the statistics was a look at Grammy nominees, of which women only made up 9.3% from 2013 to 2018. Or, as the study breaks it down, "This is a gender ratio of 9.7 males to every 1 female." Less than 10% of the artists nominated for Record of the Year or Album of the Year, the Grammy's two flagship awards, were female. Those are bad optics for the Grammys as a whole, and they were only enhanced at the 2018 Grammys by an Album of the Year nomination field with one female artist nominee (Lorde) and a Record of the Year category with zero female artists."

 

Here's a graph that extends that research from 2013 up to 2022:

  Hide contents

I'm speaking as a male who works in the industry, I've seen firsthand the disparity between the treatment of female artists and male artists, particularly when it comes to financial contractual negotiations, particularly situations such as booking fees for festival shows (the comparison between what female artists are paid versus what male artists are paid despite the fact they often have higher billing on the line-up and a larger commercial draw and fanbase), and it's not a coincidence that the majority of the lawyers, agents, and live promoters in the industry who decide and negotiate these fees are male, and have been known to take a higher percentage cut than they do with male artists. The industry is riddled with sexism in all levels, and that's largely due to the fact that behind the scenes it is still heavily white male dominated. To suggest that voting bodies such as the Recording Academy, as large (and severely lacking in diversity) as they are, has no effect on the outcome of awards recognition simply because you can't think of any examples off the top of your head and you think that everything looks fair because there's lots of successful pop girls is wilfully ignorant or naive at best.

I feel like you are going off on topics that I never mentioned, I am fully aware of the state of the touring industry and how it is controlled by white men. As for awards, it is very sexist at the lower levels that comprise the majority of artists. I was specifically talking big name artists and the odds of them picking up something in a major category. Is the system perfect? absolutely not but women are being increasingly recognized these days at the top level of the music industry and that is a very good thing. A well known female artist who puts out a good album has a good a chance at winning a Grammy Award, that is what I was referring to. You are trying to tell me about women being underrepresented in the industry as a whole which I 100% agree with you about but that was never something I was denying to begin with. The 2023 Grammy Awards had a fairly good balance of male and female artists in the nominations people actually care about, the biggest injustice of the whole night was that Harry's House beat out Beyonce for album of the year.

[Night Vision 3,050]

22 minutes ago, 4th Street said:

I feel like you are going off on topics that I never mentioned, I am fully aware of the state of the touring industry and how it is controlled by white men. As for awards, it is very sexist at the lower levels that comprise the majority of artists. I was specifically talking big name artists and the odds of them picking up something in a major category. Is the system perfect? absolutely not but women are being increasingly recognized these days at the top level of the music industry and that is a very good thing. A well known female artist who puts out a good album has a good a chance at winning a Grammy Award, that is what I was referring to. You are trying to tell me about women being underrepresented in the industry as a whole which I 100% agree with you about but that was never something I was denying to begin with. The 2023 Grammy Awards had a fairly good balance of male and female artists in the nominations people actually care about, the biggest injustice of the whole night was that Harry's House beat out Beyonce for album of the year.

Sexism in different sectors of the industry is relevant because a lot of the people who work behind the scenes in the industry are voters for these awards, so there's a direct correlation. That's the point. And even when it comes to "big name artists", there are many instances of women being underrepresented in awards but when these examples are given to you then you make a specific goalpost that you were apparently referring to. It's pretty undeniable that there's a gender disparity in all sections of the industry, so it's kind of baffling why you are so insistent that that disparity doesn't stretch to awards recognition. Just because there are some successful female pop artists who have done well at the Grammy's doesn't mean there isn't a broader problem.

[King of the Fall 3,811]

3 hours ago, Night Vision said:

Sexism in different sectors of the industry is relevant because a lot of the people who work behind the scenes in the industry are voters for these awards, so there's a direct correlation. That's the point. And even when it comes to "big name artists", there are many instances of women being underrepresented in awards but when these examples are given to you then you make a specific goalpost that you were apparently referring to. It's pretty undeniable that there's a gender disparity in all sections of the industry, so it's kind of baffling why you are so insistent that that disparity doesn't stretch to awards recognition. Just because there are some successful female pop artists who have done well at the Grammy's doesn't mean there isn't a broader problem.

 I am totally aware of the disparity in overall representation for women in the industry but that really does not carry over into the top levels of the awards anymore. It is still wrong that women are underrepresented but that is a topic outside of this discussion. Again, when did I ever deny that there was a broader problem? the thing you don't seem to get is that this broader problem does not really impact female artists like Taylor Swift or Adele at their level of popularity. I agree with lots of the things you are saying, I just reject the notion that someone at the level of a pop super star is really suffering all that much because of it when it comes to taking home awards. I don't really feel like beating a dead horse anymore so lets just agree to disagree.

[TMM90 3,004]

1 hour ago, 4th Street said:

 I am totally aware of the disparity in overall representation for women in the industry but that really does not carry over into the top levels of the awards anymore. It is still wrong that women are underrepresented but that is a topic outside of this discussion. Again, when did I ever deny that there was a broader problem? the thing you don't seem to get is that this broader problem does not really impact female artists like Taylor Swift or Adele at their level of popularity despite the fact that so many white men are voting on these awards. I agree with lots of the things you are saying, hopefully you know that I was not trying to deny the existence of sexism in the music industry, I just reject the notion that someone at the level of a pop super star is really suffering all that much because of it when it comes to taking home awards. I don't really feel like beating a dead horse anymore so lets just agree to disagree.

What is your point exactly with the posts your writing? Cause you got your answers from different people on here - yet you counter every reply given. 

[King of the Fall 3,811]

Time to drop it🙄🙄🙄

[Monstermilo 3,827]

thats why i love gaga 

she moves you with all the production one second, the next she can make you cry wearing jeans and a shirt and a piano 

i do agree though, ppl love to tear down female pop stars more so than their male counterparts, who usually put less effort in

[Oriane 19,933]

No, people don't like pop music because it's often the same generic uninspired trash, sung by artists who can't sing and didn't even write the songs.

People accept Ed Sheeran but expect a big show with glitters from a woman? Gaga has had a lot more respect from the GP everytime she did something more stripped down that showcased her musical talent and didn't focus on looks.

[River 106,462]

Taylor, Gaga, Billie, Beyonce, Bjork, Adele, Celine, Madonna, Amy and this is just to name a few are the most acclaimed female artists in the world and some of them come with dancer and some just sit on a chair and sing stripped down music, some do both.

It's not the clothes, the dancers or just the piano, it the shitty ready to be tiktok hits music that other females are releasing.. they are talking about their music like it's something poetic, like Mozart wrote it, but it's just another trash pop music. which is fine, it can be enjoyable, but don't expect to be acclaimed, expect to be just another entertainer and eat up the criticism.. if you want the acclaim, work your ass off, write your music, play on something, learn to dance better..

Gaga performed at IKEA's parking lot to make it to the top..

[Future Lovers 6,552]

While I do think that female artists tend to get scrutinized more for perceived missteps, I think @River's take is really spot on.

There's also the question here of what audience male and female pop stars are playing to. The majority of the audience that male pop stars bring in are going to be young females who aren't particularly demanding when it comes to how an artist performs as long as they're playing the songs that they enjoy.

And for the most part, male artists do still deliver on at least creating some sort of visual spectacle. Shawn Mendes and Justin Bieber when they were starting out did have very low quality stages and wore essentially street clothes, but both of their most recent tours featured massive stages, massive screens, impressive light shows, and clothing that while a far cry from costume-like, was clearly tailored and designed for the tour. That was more than enough for their audience, even if that is by comparison the bare minimum expected from a pop girl. That bare minimum is really more than what their audience is asking for.

Female pop artists on the other hand still attract a young female audience, but their largest demographic tends to be queer males. That audience is very demanding of what they expect out of their performers, and it's usually them on stan twitter criticizing pop girls. It's them the girls are catering to and it's them who loudly and proudly speak on their thoughts.

It's not that male artists get away with murder, it's a lot to do with who they're selling their product to has a completely different set of things they want from their artists than most female artists do. 

Now, when it comes to media coverage and backlash for mistakes/missteps/or off nights live, then yes females are always going to get the short end of the stick there and that is absolutely horrendous and always been. But purely on a musical/performance expectations standard, it all comes down to your audience. 

[Night Vision 3,050]

14 hours ago, 4th Street said:

 I am totally aware of the disparity in overall representation for women in the industry but that really does not carry over into the top levels of the awards anymore. It is still wrong that women are underrepresented but that is a topic outside of this discussion. Again, when did I ever deny that there was a broader problem? the thing you don't seem to get is that this broader problem does not really impact female artists like Taylor Swift or Adele at their level of popularity. I agree with lots of the things you are saying, I just reject the notion that someone at the level of a pop super star is really suffering all that much because of it when it comes to taking home awards. I don't really feel like beating a dead horse anymore so lets just agree to disagree.

The way you create specific goalposts for your point every time you've been presented with multiple examples that debunk your argument  And like I said previously, just because you think that these issues around gender in the industry don't impact the biggest female artists such as Taylor or Adele, doesn't mean you are right.

[King of the Fall 3,811]

3 hours ago, Night Vision said:

The way you create specific goalposts for your point every time you've been presented with multiple examples that debunk your argument  And like I said previously, just because you think that these issues around gender in the industry don't impact the biggest female artists such as Taylor or Adele, doesn't mean you are right.

 If you are going to keep pretending you are countering arguments that I never made, please stop responding to me and just leave me alone. Last time I checked neither of these artists have been struggling to get recognized by the industry. If gender was as debilitating for these major stars as you claim, it is very interesting that Beyonce exists because all of us know that she never gets awarded and is treated like crap because she happens to be a woman. Oh wait, I forgot that she is the most awarded artist in Grammy history and is always being treated like a literal goddess who can do no wrong and it always being introduced with sycophantic speeches at every awards show she attends but we all know that she deserves even better treatment and the only thing holding her back is her gender😉