Trump is very happy that Twitter is now in so-called "sane hands"

[devilrhino 394]

People make up their own minds as individuals in what to agree with and who to follow. It should not be down to any one person or one organisation to censor or advocate for different views and freedoms of speech on behalf of others within a liberal democracy. Free speech should always prevail, let people make their own choices and pay the consequences of such. 

[Guest]

the french call it 'leu véwitééé'

[gothicdream 39,655]

1 hour ago, moonsago said:

Every single idea, no matter how horrific it is needs to be brought to the table where it is in PLAIN SIGHT and where it can be put to death with critical thinking, reasoning, facts, compassion and so on. 

This is the conundrum we are facing though. People like Trump and those who support him do not think critically or with reason about his ideas, nor do they care about facts. At this point we do not all share the same reality, which is the basis we need to be able to have true discourse. So does it actually help to give them a platform to reach more people?

[moonsago 7,285]

@Stevies Cockatoo @RebeldeFaith @FATCAT @RahrahWitch

I’m going to respond to all of you in one comment because it is easier. 
You completely missed my point, I did say that some of these ideas are going to be dangerous but they have to be brought to light so they can be proven to be exactly that. I stand by what I said, we cannot rid ourselves of people as much as we try and we can only get rid of bad ideologies by changing minds through conversations. Something we do not promote! Sorry, but everybody is simply pushing their belief system on the other and asks them to either accept it or leave. Regardless of a company being public or not, let’s not act ignorant, few people control this entire world. What they believe in is how they regulate their ‘private’ platforms, and that is a danger to democracy!!! While we are running around like chickens with our heads cut off we miss that very point. It’s easy to think you are free because everything seems ‘private’ but in reality you are not because the same people own everything. Any idea, no matter how many times we have to do it, needs to be put to sleep if untrue and dangerous. People grow in their ignorance if you just cast them aside, and the consequences you talk about don’t actually exist because we don’t do ANYTHING real to stop those ideas from existing. We just shut them up on an app, yet they are still out there spreading their beliefs. And that is the truth. 

[moonsago 7,285]

Just now, Healed My Heart said:

This is the conundrum we are facing though. People like Trump and those who support him do not think critically or with reason about his ideas, nor do they care about facts. At this point we do not all share the same reality, which is the basis we need to be able to have true discourse. So does it actually help to give them a platform to reach more people?

Yes. You might not change their minds but you can use them against their own ideas. We change the minds of their followers by proving their own arguments to be wrong through ours. We will never ‘save’ everybody, but casting people aside is not saving anybody. Those people still exist and will forever exist, we need to minimize how many of them do exist though. Not to mention that how do we know that WE are always right if we are never questioned ourselves? Again, that promotes the risk of delusionalism. 

[gothicdream 39,655]

1 minute ago, moonsago said:

Yes. You might not change their minds but you can use them against their own ideas. We change the minds of their followers by proving their own arguments to be wrong through ours. We will never ‘save’ everybody, but casting people aside is not saving anybody. Those people still exist and will forever exist, we need to minimize how many of them do exist though. Not to mention that how do we know that WE are always right if we are never questioned ourselves? Again, that promotes the risk of delusionalism. 

I think it's pretty clear what is right and wrong when it comes to the things Trump threatens, like democracy, LGBTQ+ rights, women's rights, racial equity, etc. These aren't topics that should be up for debate.

I would like to see an example of a single person changing their far right beliefs because someone called them out on Twitter.

I don't think there's a clear solution here, because I agree that shutting people out doesn't make them go away. But I very much believe we don't need to make it easier for them to have a platform.

[moonsago 7,285]

1 minute ago, Healed My Heart said:

I think it's pretty clear what is right and wrong when it comes to the things Trump threatens, like democracy, LGBTQ+ rights, women's rights, racial equity, etc. These aren't topics that should be up for debate.

I would like to see an example of a single person changing their far right beliefs because someone called them out on Twitter.

I don't think there's a clear solution here, because I agree that shutting people out doesn't make them go away. But I very much believe we don't need to make it easier for them to have a platform.

As someone who does not identify with either the left or the right, you have a very narrow minded view on the right as they also have of you. Once you take a step back and decide to be a critical thinker that does not let themselves be swayed away by what other say and do research on your own, you will start to realize certain problems that are occurring within your group of people. That is what freedom of speech promotes, access to information that is not curated FOR you. You think of them as fascists that don’t care for minorities which is untrue, what is happening in the left is extremism masked as equality. All the communities you think are being helped, are being ruined from within and time will show you that very exact thing, you think what’s happening is equality but it’s really just ‘anything that those minorities say, goes, because for sure it must be true’. The pendulum has now swung very far left when once was very far right. It is a never ending game of thug of war because we refuse to educate ourselves through conversation but rather by silencing people that don’t wanna believe what we believe even though we never challenged our own beliefs to see if they are true or if we go about them in the right way. Not listening to one another is the problem. The me vs them mentality is the problem. And that is what freedom of speech can prevent. I hope this helps. 

[gothicdream 39,655]

2 minutes ago, moonsago said:

As someone who does not identify with either the left or the right, you have a very narrow minded view on the right as they also have of you. Once you take a step back and decide to be a critical thinker that does not let themselves be swayed away by what other say and do research on your own, you will start to realize certain problems that are occurring within your group of people. That is what freedom of speech promotes, access to information that is not curated FOR you. You think of them as fascists that don’t care for minorities which is untrue, what is happening in the left is extremism masked as equality. All the communities you think are being helped, are being ruined from within and time will show you that very exact thing, you think what’s happening is equality but it’s really just ‘anything that those minorities say, goes, because for sure it must be true’. The pendulum has now swung very far left when once was very far right. It is a never ending game of thug of war because we refuse to educate ourselves through conversation but rather by silencing people that don’t wanna believe what we believe even though we never challenged our own beliefs to see if they are true or if we go about them in the right way. Not listening to one another is the problem. The me vs them mentality is the problem. And that is what freedom of speech can prevent. I hope this helps. 

Yikes, well I don't feel the need to defend myself here. Zero need for personal attacks or to presume you know a single thing about me. I wish you well.

[RahrahWitch 6,985]

14 minutes ago, moonsago said:

@Stevies Cockatoo @RebeldeFaith @FATCAT @RahrahWitch

I’m going to respond to all of you in one comment because it is easier. 
You completely missed my point, I did say that some of these ideas are going to be dangerous but they have to be brought to light so they can be proven to be exactly that. I stand by what I said, we cannot rid ourselves of people as much as we try and we can only get rid of bad ideologies by changing minds through conversations. Something we do not promote! Sorry, but everybody is simply pushing their belief system on the other and asks them to either accept it or leave. Regardless of a company being public or not, let’s not act ignorant, few people control this entire world. What they believe in is how they regulate their ‘private’ platforms, and that is a danger to democracy!!! While we are running around like chickens with our heads cut off we miss that very point. It’s easy to think you are free because everything seems ‘private’ but in reality you are not because the same people own everything. Any idea, no matter how many times we have to do it, needs to be put to sleep if untrue and dangerous. People grow in their ignorance if you just cast them aside, and the consequences you talk about don’t actually exist because we don’t do ANYTHING real to stop those ideas from existing. We just shut them up on an app, yet they are still out there spreading their beliefs. And that is the truth. 

I'm struggling to understand what you mean are you saying we should let people say dangerous/discriminatory things just so we can have a debate?

Discourse between different beliefs happens all the time online, especially on twitter. Just look at Political side of Twitter. None of which is silenced.

People get banned when they overstep which is perfectly reasonable because without any kind of consequence to what you say Twitter would end up like a second 4chan. Dangerous ideas and dialog need to be moderated, Elon thinks otherwise. 

 

 

[moonsago 7,285]

4 minutes ago, Healed My Heart said:

Yikes, well I don't feel the need to defend myself here. Zero need for personal attacks or to presume you know a single thing about me. I wish you well.

I did not attack you in any way shape of form. See, this was a perfect example of how the left acts. I used to be the same as I used to believe everything going on in the left. Somebody says something using critical thinking and you take it personally. The left operates on emotions and feelings more than on facts. That’s why the mentality is ‘well if a gay person said it, it must be true and we must follow what they say because I want to be kind and on the right side of history’ ( you use being compassionate to somebody’s struggle as the ONLY reason as to why you must side with them, because gay people are just... gay, and they all have the same life experiences so they can speak for every other gay person so therefore their situation must represent the entire community ) as if gay people cannot be wrong and uninformed even on their own community. Or as if they can’t act just out of unreasonable emotions. That’s what’s happening on the left, we are so compassionate that we ignore facts and reality and we generalize the situation of some people and apply it to all, when sometimes we can’t. We want to be good so bad that we end up being fooled and... in the wrong. That’s what freedom of speech can prevent, being manipulated by just 1 side of the story. It all sounds good on both sides but you have to step aside and fact check to see if it is also true. And one way to do it is through conversations with the other side. Much love to you. 

[gothicdream 39,655]

3 minutes ago, moonsago said:

I did not attack you in any way shape of form. See, this was a perfect example of how the left acts. I used to be the same as I used to believe everything going on in the left. Somebody says something using critical thinking and you take it personally. The left operates on emotions and feelings more than on facts. That’s why the mentality is ‘well if a gay person said it, it must be true and we must follow what they say because I want to be kind and on the right side of history’ ( you use being compassionate to somebody’s struggle as the ONLY reason as to why you must side with them, because gay people are just... gay, and they all have the same life experiences so they can speak for every other gay person so therefore their situation must represent the entire community ) as if gay people cannot be wrong and uninformed even on their own community. Or as if they can’t act just out of unreasonable emotions. That’s what’s happening on the left, we are so compassionate that we ignore facts and reality and we generalize the situation of some people and apply it to all, when sometimes we can’t. We want to be good so bad that we end up being fooled and... in the wrong. That’s what freedom of speech can prevent, being manipulated by just 1 side of the story. It all sounds good on both sides but you have to step aside and fact check to see if it is also true. And one way to do it is through conversations with the other side. Much love to you. 

You called me narrow-minded, told me I lack critical thinking, and told ME what MY beliefs are. Therefore, not worth the debate.

[sillynate 6,170]

5 minutes ago, moonsago said:

I did not attack you in any way shape of form. See, this was a perfect example of how the left acts. I used to be the same as I used to believe everything going on in the left. Somebody says something using critical thinking and you take it personally. The left operates on emotions and feelings more than on facts. That’s why the mentality is ‘well if a gay person said it, it must be true and we must follow what they say because I want to be kind and on the right side of history’ ( you use being compassionate to somebody’s struggle as the ONLY reason as to why you must side with them, because gay people are just... gay, and they all have the same life experiences so they can speak for every other gay person so therefore their situation must represent the entire community ) as if gay people cannot be wrong and uninformed even on their own community. Or as if they can’t act just out of unreasonable emotions. That’s what’s happening on the left, we are so compassionate that we ignore facts and reality and we generalize the situation of some people and apply it to all, when sometimes we can’t. We want to be good so bad that we end up being fooled and... in the wrong. That’s what freedom of speech can prevent, being manipulated by just 1 side of the story. It all sounds good on both sides but you have to step aside and fact check to see if it is also true. And one way to do it is through conversations with the other side. Much love to you. 

 

[moonsago 7,285]

1 minute ago, RahrahWitch said:

I'm struggling to understand what you mean are you saying we should let people say dangerous/discriminatory things just so we can have a debate?

Discourse between different beliefs happens all the time online, especially on twitter. Just look at Political side of Twitter. None of which is silenced.

People get banned when they overstep which is perfectly reasonable because without any kind of consequence to what you say Twitter would end up like a second 4chan. Dangerous ideas and dialog need to be moderated, Elon thinks otherwise. 

 

 

Define dangerous speech because we live in a world where we throw words around so easily without reasonable explanations. Somebody disagrees with a black person on one take they have and they are immediately called racist without explanations and portrayed a certain way. And that’s the problem, we manipulate narratives and immediately block people out. And the left is VERY guilty of calling people names when somebody simply disagrees on something. ( I am neither left or right, in case you wanna immediately assume I am the right because I criticize the left ) Yes, you should let people say what is on their mind so you know it exists and it exists with THEM. You go after them through arguments and in turn change the minds of their potential followers and make an example out of them. We believe the whole world is on social media. It is NOT. You block them on an app and they go talk in person. Did Hitler use twitter? No, and his bad ideologies still got around. Did Trump’s supporters go away just because he isn’t on twitter? NO! You bring those ideas to light and kill them before they grow. 

[moonsago 7,285]

1 minute ago, sillynate said:

 

And if that is true, I disagree with that also. Everybody should speak and present their side to the best of their ability so THE PEOPLE choose. So no, this is not okay either. 

[moonsago 7,285]

5 minutes ago, Healed My Heart said:

You called me narrow-minded, told me I lack critical thinking, and told ME what MY beliefs are. Therefore, not worth the debate.

You literally focused on just the far right changing their beliefs. Therefore proving my point, you are not open minded to accept that you can also be in the wrong, you expect only others to change to what you believe because you for sure know that the left is ALWAYS right or goes the right way about things.