Halsey claims magazines refused to do their 'maternity cover'

[Meruk Holland 2,294]

7 hours ago, littlepotter said:

This is where I start to disagree pretty strongly. This is completely ignoring the function of language and pronouns itself. Pronouns are meant to be a tool to help us communicate more efficiently. While I'm a big supporter of gender nonconformity, I don't know why people let pronouns define their identity instead of just reclaiming their given pronoun and defying its social implications, but I respect their preference and will use their preferred pronouns. But having to switch pronouns and cater to every individual's whims? I'm just going to be honest and say that sounds ridiculous. Anyone who thinks their identity matters so much that other people have to make a conscious effort to refer to them in alternative ways seems to me like they have an ego problem. 

Well, it isn't about reclaiming. You don't get to say what people are allowed to feel dysphoric about, and for some people like Halsey, it could be people only using "she/her" with them. Again, you don't have to cater to Halsey's "whims" because you don't know them. You have no direct interest in appealing to their human experience. And even if you did know someone who did have "she/they" pronouns, sticking with one set is just, at best, lazy or thoughtless, as in you literally aren't thinking about their gender identity when you talk about them. It's not an egregious sin. "She says she's a 'they' as well" and then unspoken "(But we're gonna ignore that, and stick with 'she')" doesn't break a social contract, but it can feel invalidating when that's what the conversation is focused on. It'd be like saying about a woman "she says she's bisexual" and then only asking questions about what men she's currently attracted to. In the grand scheme of things, its not terrible, but its pretty gauche and inconsiderate.   

But since you brought it up, what is it pronouns are supposed to efficiently communicate? What is the purpose of having masculine and feminine and neutral pronouns instead of just a single, neutral pronoun? And why only those three in the English language when there are more defining traits to people than just masculine, feminine, or neutral? Is it possible that our society places importance on those traits socially, and that's reflected in our use of the language?

Like, personally, no pronouns work for me, I feel equally uncomfortable with "he," "she," and "they," and more uncomfortable with all neopronouns. So, saying I prefer or want to reclaim any of them doesn't work for me. But I'm unique in that I don't want to hear any of them, so rotating pronouns with me doesn't make me feel validated, and not acknowledging that I go by any specific pronoun doesn't make me feel invalidated. But if someone says they go by "She/they," especially when they previously went by "she/her," it indicates that "she/her" doesn't fully express their identity. Thus, hearing people use both is validating and good. Not using both is, at best, neutral and fine, and at worst, maliciously invalidating. In this instance, Halsey felt Allure was being malicious in the article.

[Jill 30,302]

9 hours ago, Elohim said:

Welcome to the age of "Politically Correct"! 

You all are starting to sound like NPCs my god

[holy scheisse 22,299]

9 hours ago, Elohim said:

Welcome to the age of "Politically Correct"! 

"Politically correct" is such a loaded phrase tbh. Right wing conservatives hurl that sh*t around at stuff in place of taking accountability for their bigotry lol

[Fish 6,149]

yawwwn really 

[gothicdream 39,610]

Thank you for adding so much perspective here @Meruk Holland I learned a lot from this discussion 

Regarding the pregnancy discrimination from the magazines, all I can say is 

[Guest]

So what do u want us to do about that? Tired of these celebs complaining online anytime something minor happens, thinking they can be the victim/hero and we praise them, we got other **** to do girl

[littlepotter 75,147]

5 minutes ago, Meruk Holland said:

And even if you did know someone who did have "she/they" pronouns, sticking with one set is just, at best, lazy or thoughtless, as in you literally aren't thinking about their gender identity when you talk about them.

This is exactly what I meant when I brought up ego. I'm not thinking about someone's gender identity when I address them. I feel like it would be self centered of me to make people refer to me in an overly specific way, and I also feel it's belittling to think of someone as their gender, I'd rather address them as a person. At the same time I see how this sounds like "I don't see color" rhetoric so at the end of the day I don't know enough about the subject. I'm just stating my thoughts and they're prone to changing.

10 minutes ago, Meruk Holland said:

it can feel invalidating when that's what the conversation is focused on.

I get your point, yeah in this specific instance they should have referred to her alternatively in the article since that was a major point of the article. You're right

11 minutes ago, Meruk Holland said:

But since you brought it up, what is it pronouns are supposed to efficiently communicate? What is the purpose of having masculine and feminine and neutral pronouns instead of just a single, neutral pronoun? And why only those three in the English language when there are more defining traits to people than just masculine, feminine, or neutral? Is it possible that our society places importance on those traits socially, and that's reflected in our use of the language?

To me there really shouldn't be any "purpose" to pronouns beside it being a replacement for their name. Or else language would sound like this: "Meruk woke up and Meruk had breakfast, then on Meruk's way to Meruk's school Meruk saw Meruk's friend Tatianna and Tatianna's mom. Meruk said hi to Tatianna and Tatianna's mom then continued walking." That is just not practical. Pronouns just help shorten things. In my native languages arabic and french every single thing is gendered, table has feminine pronouns, window has masucline pronouns. It's all purely arbitrary. 

[Meruk Holland 2,294]

12 minutes ago, littlepotter said:

To me there really shouldn't be any "purpose" to pronouns beside it being a replacement for their name. Or else language would sound like this: "Meruk woke up and Meruk had breakfast, then on Meruk's way to Meruk's school Meruk saw Meruk's friend Tatianna and Tatianna's mom. Meruk said hi to Tatianna and Tatianna's mom then continued walking." That is just not practical. Pronouns just help shorten things. In my native languages arabic and french every single thing is gendered, table has feminine pronouns, window has masucline pronouns. It's all purely arbitrary. 

Yeah, and there is a bit of a cultural subtext going on here. I certainly can't speak for other languages where everything is gendered, and I can't speak for languages where nothing is gendered, I can only talk about the importance of pronouns in English. Because it is important that we use specific pronouns for people. As an example, we accept that "they" is gender neutral, but so is "it." But there's a good reason we don't use "it" when referring to people, because "it" carries a connotation of dehumanizing. It's not entirely arbitrary in English, pronouns do a little more heavy lifting.

[js4754394o9823 6,882]

18 minutes ago, KanyeWest said:

So what do u want us to do about that? Tired of these celebs complaining online anytime something minor happens, thinking they can be the victim/hero and we praise them, we got other **** to do girl

i think that magazines not showing pregnant people and thinking it's not good for promotion is beyond being a celebrity lol

[Lion Heart 15,041]

>"In July Halsey was on the cover of Allure magazine, after a magazine misgendered them (they referred to Halsey with female pronouns | Halsey’s pronouns are she/they), Halsey said she will no longer participate in press interviews. "

 

Jesus Christ.

 

That aside, these magazines refusing to work with her because she happens to be pregnant is really messed up.

[Fresco 1,688]

She could name the magazines. It's just not ok to not put a woman on the cover because she is carrying a baby. I'm angry with the press about this! No modern magazine should have this as a reason to not do a photoshoot. 

About the pronouns. Technically she is both a she and a they if you consider the fetus. I will not be changing the language to refer to a person as she/they. She/they were denied a cover because she/they was/were pregnant with her/their child. It's just too extra.   Pick 1, she can't require both.

 

[Plastic Flower 5,195]

So everyone in here forgot about the pregnancy thing 

[PussOfYonce 3,657]

16 hours ago, Elohim said:

Welcome to the age of "Politically Correct"! 

how are these people not banned?

[JanStan 574]

I’m confused. So how is someone non binary and binary at the same time. Is that not a literal contradiction? Serious question. 

[Meruk Holland 2,294]

6 minutes ago, JanStan said:

I’m confused. So how is someone non binary and binary at the same time. Is that not a literal contradiction? Serious question. 

I don't think Halsey is binary. Nonbinary can prefer pronouns in line with their gender assigned at birth.

But to your question, if you were to think of gender as a spectrum like this:

In this thought exercise, the left is Binary Male and the right is Binary Female, nonbinary would fall in the direct middle. But there's no clear defining point when you cross over from "binary" to "nonbinary." So those on the border where "binary" and "nonbinary" touch might consider themselves binary, or nonbinary, or both. And, of course, gender expression does not cleanly translate to a graph like this, its too complex and multifaceted, this is just an example.

Someone who considers themselves both binary and nonbinary might think "well, I mostly align with this binary gender, but not entirely. To say I'm just a man/woman feels wrong and inaccurate, but not far from the mark." Alternatively, they could be fluid with their gender identity, and at some times, they very much feel aligned with a binary gender, and at other times, not at all.