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Two beheaded in Nice, France mass stabbing suspected terror attack

Florian
7 hours ago, MJHolland said:

My next door neighbors, my boss, my coworkers, and my friends that I (used to, rip covid) see every single day are Muslim. I don't know why I'm being told I don't "live among Muslims" and therefore my opinion about this is invalid. 

It's like y'all are trying to intimidate and bully us just because we're saying this attack doesn't represent a majority Muslims' views. This guy wasn't even an Islamist terrorist! This was a white supremacy attack wtf! @hankhatesyouall please update the OP my man....

That's really disheartening and upsetting to see. I really thought we were serious about making this forum a more tolerant place. 

White supremacy attack ?! :rip: Where ?! :toofunny:

I think you're mixing two different events

 

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Curunir
12 hours ago, MJHolland said:

3. It turns out hank made yet another anti-Islam flamebait thread and failed to update the OP with the news that this isn't looking like it was religiously motivated. Why are we still talking about this?

 

11 hours ago, MJHolland said:

also, turns out the attack was conducted in the name of white supremacy. 

 

7 hours ago, MJHolland said:

This guy wasn't even an Islamist terrorist! This was a white supremacy attack wtf! @hankhatesyouall please update the OP my man....

The attack conducted by a white supremacist was a separate event in Avignon, France. There were no victims and the attacker was shot by the police. It happened on the same day as the one in Nice, aka the one that's being discussed in this thread.

1 hour ago, Defmix100 said:

Was it, is the OP incorrect or misleading?

No.

Edited by Curunir
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lego

World leaders condemn Nice attack as France terror alert level raised to maximum

..

Condemnation also came from Middle East, Arab and Islamic leaders, who drew a clear distinction between their religion and violent acts that claimed to defend it. Turkey, which is embroiled in a row with France over publication of cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have triggered a wave of attacks against French people, was among the first to respond to the attack.

“We strongly condemn the attack committed today inside the Notre-Dame church in Nice,” a Turkish foreign ministry statement said.

Egypt’s foreign ministry said it “stands as a government and people with ... France in combatting this hateful incident”.

Insulting Muslims for ‘abhorrent crimes of such extremists is an opportunistic abuse of freedom of speech’, says Iranian FM Mohammad Javad Zarif

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/30/world-leaders-condemn-nice-attack-as-france-terror-alert-level-raised-to-maximum

 

Edited by lego
racist ppl really be like “so just because I’m a racist that makes me racist ??? wow”
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Florian
1 hour ago, Faysalaaa said:

Muslims where I live are saying if France allows drawing of our prophet in the name of free speech, why is denying the holocost illegal in France? Why is the Holocost a red line, but Muslim prophets are not?

Because of context ?

Imagine putting the drawing of a religious figure at the same level than denying the death of more than 5 million people.

The Holocaust denying is not an opinion, it's a clearly antisemitic agenda pushed by political forces to attack the Jews and rewrite History.

Justice and laws in France are pretty simple, in the name of Freedom of Speech  you can criticize a religion, its institutions, its gods or its symbolism. That's freedom of Blasphemy

However this right does not allow you to slander or attack the followers of the religion. Discrimination and incitation to hadred are crimes that are punished. For exemple some people from extreme right party get sued for blatant islamophobia.

--------

I feel a lot of people try to put out here that France has an anti-muslim agenda when all those laws were created the past century in order to free ourselves from the Catholic Church and it's really annoying to be depicted that way. French laïcité wasn't created to fight religion but to ensure that everybody has the right to believe or not believe what they want and that a religious political agenda cannot interfere with the res publica. One's religion isn't above the values of an entire nation.

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lego
30 minutes ago, Florian said:

White supremacy attack ?! :rip: Where ?! :toofunny:

I think you're mixing two different events

 

 

He did mix them up, but idk what is so funny? Attack by white supremacist did happen in another city and it was mentioned in this thread. And this wasn’t first time far right planned terror attack and framed muslims for it. Correction hours later almost never goes viral. Maybe it’s time to talk about that too and condemn them. Just saying, most from this thread are missing from the other one, for a reason. 

 

racist ppl really be like “so just because I’m a racist that makes me racist ??? wow”
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Florian
Just now, lego said:

 

He did mix them up, but idk what is so funny? Attack by white supremacist did happen in another city and it was mentioned in this thread. And this wasn’t first time far right planned terror attack and framed muslims for it. Correction hours later almost never goes viral. Maybe it’s time to talk about that too and condemn them. Just saying, most from this thread are missing from the other one, for a reason. 

 

Because it was stated in this thread already that it was too different events.

Also most of our media outlets didn't specify that the attack was terrorist or not in the first place because testimonies were contradictory (is that a word in English ?). Some said he was an islamist with a knife, others said he made a nazi gesture with a gun, it was kind of confused.

However I saw a lot of title stating that it was not an islamist attacks and it was almost certainly in the news on TV as the situation was clear by the time of the evening TV news shows.

And I do think it's important that the truth is said and shared

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Guest
14 minutes ago, Florian said:

Because of context ?

Imagine putting the drawing of a religious figure at the same level than denying the death of more than 5 million people.

The Holocaust denying is not an opinion, it's a clearly antisemitic agenda pushed by political forces to attack the Jews and rewrite History.

Justice and laws in France are pretty simple, in the name of Freedom of Speech  you can criticize a religion, its institutions, its gods or its symbolism. That's freedom of Blasphemy

However this right does not allow you to slander or attack the followers of the religion. Discrimination and incitation to hadred are crimes that are punished. For exemple some people from extreme right party get sued for blatant islamophobia.

--------

I feel a lot of people try to put out here that France has an anti-muslim agenda when all those laws were created the past century in order to free ourselves from the Catholic Church and it's really annoying to be depicted that way. French laïcité wasn't created to fight religion but to ensure that everybody has the right to believe or not believe what they want and that a religious political agenda cannot interfere with the res publica. One's religion isn't above the values of an entire nation.

Sorry but I dont see your point..

This means France does not have freedom of speech if people cant deny facts. So France cant use the freedom of speech argument when it comes to drawings of Islam.

You say denying the holocaust harms Jews, but same could be said about the Islamic drawings. Specially with how extremely problematic the drawings are about Muslim people stareotypes.

The reason people think France is anti Muslim is because they even ban hijabs in beaches and do weird things to Muslims unlike the rest of the western world.

Edited by Guest

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lego
14 minutes ago, lego said:

World leaders condemn Nice attack as France terror alert level raised to maximum

..

Condemnation also came from Middle East, Arab and Islamic leaders, who drew a clear distinction between their religion and violent acts that claimed to defend it. Turkey, which is embroiled in a row with France over publication of cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have triggered a wave of attacks against French people, was among the first to respond to the attack.

“We strongly condemn the attack committed today inside the Notre-Dame church in Nice,” a Turkish foreign ministry statement said.

Egypt’s foreign ministry said it “stands as a government and people with ... France in combatting this hateful incident”.

Insulting Muslims for ‘abhorrent crimes of such extremists is an opportunistic abuse of freedom of speech’, says Iranian FM Mohammad Javad Zarif

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/30/world-leaders-condemn-nice-attack-as-france-terror-alert-level-raised-to-maximum

 

 

 

hmm found this too;

 

Chechen leader denounces terrorist attack on teacher outside Paris

TASS, October 18. Chechnya’s head Ramzan Kadyrov has denounced the terrorist attack in which a teacher was killed in a Paris suburb and offered his condolences to the teacher’s family, Kadyrov wrote on his Telegram channelon Saturday.

"We condemn this act of terror and offer condolences to the family of the victim. Strongly opposing terrorism in any manifestations, I urge not to provoke the believers, nor to hurt their religious feelings," the Chechen leader said.

He assured France that the Chechens had nothing to do with the attack.

https://tass.com/russia/1213395

 

@MJHolland

racist ppl really be like “so just because I’m a racist that makes me racist ??? wow”
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Admin
1 minute ago, lego said:

hmm found this too;

Chechen leader denounces terrorist attack on teacher outside Paris

TASS, October 18. Chechnya’s head Ramzan Kadyrov has denounced the terrorist attack in which a teacher was killed in a Paris suburb and offered his condolences to the teacher’s family, Kadyrov wrote on his Telegram channelon Saturday.

"We condemn this act of terror and offer condolences to the family of the victim. Strongly opposing terrorism in any manifestations, I urge not to provoke the believers, nor to hurt their religious feelings," the Chechen leader said.

He assured France that the Chechens had nothing to do with the attack.

https://tass.com/russia/1213395

Same guy, a week later:

https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/523008-chechen-leader-macrons-stance-on-muhammad-cartoons-forcing-people

His message is basically, "We condemn the acts of terror, but you are forcing us into them".

Islam is a peaceful religion (but be ready to get killed if you disagree).

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Pennywise

Some of y'all sound like you want special treatment for Islam tbh. The fact that you cannot make drawings of Islam is... a rule of Islam. Not anything else. You cannot expect others to abide by those rules, at all. Sure, you can ASK them to. But even if they do not, the natural result to this should never be murder. There is a difference between lack of respect and murder. Those two are not equals, and yet, some people in this thread sound like they are trying to justify murder by equating it with lack of respect. And the fact that people are coming here FIRSTLY to defend people like this and THEN to condemn murder is disgusting. Human life > any religious value. If your priorities are not in this order, there seems to be a problem. 

Also, having Muslim friends does not equal to living in a violently Islamic country at all, but I won't even talk about that tbh. 

YOUR GOD IS NOT HERE MICHAEL NOR WILL HE EVER BE
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Florian
3 minutes ago, Faysalaaa said:

Sorry but I dont see your point..

This means France does not have freedom of speech if people cant deny facts. So France cant use the freedom of speech argument when it comes to drawings of Islam.

You say denying the holocaust harms Jews, but same could be said about the Islamic drawings. Specially with how extremely problematic the drawings are about Muslim people stareotypes.

Freedom of Speech does not mean you're allowed to say whatever you want, and I would not be here for that very American-centered definition of it. Like everything you have limits that should not be crossed for the good of everyone.

I do not want a country where you can incite to hate and get away with it because of "Freedom of Speech". Imagine our PM saying it's normal to kill millions of Malaysian people.

I do not want a country where straight up lies and diffamation is allowed because of "Freedom of Speech"

I do not want a country where my private life and my private pictures can be exposed everywhere in the name of "Freedom of Speech"

I do not want a country where people can say they want to kill me because of my identity because they are free to tell whatever they want under "Freedom of Speech"

I can keep going with exceptions going from simple things like medical or professionnal secret to not allowing revenge ****.

----

About the drawing I would say that most of the French (and I'm talking BIG majority) do not like Charlie Hebdo drawings (any of them) as they are 90% of the time tasteless. I never read Charlie Hebdo for that reason. However it's not because we don't like them that they don't have the right to exist. And if we're protective of them it's not because we like Charlie Hebdo per say but because in the bigger picture they represent our Freedom of Speech.

About those specific drawings, do I find them tasteless ? Yes. Do I think they're inconsiderate toward the Muslim Community ? Yes. Are they attacking muslims people ? No. It's at best rude. It's just as cheap of a blasphemy as Gaga eating a rosary. They did it for shocking value and it worked.

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Pennywise

Like, do y'all know what would happen if I publicly criticized Islam -and it somehow got publicized out of my personal accounts - in Turkey, a supposedly secular country? I'd have cops on my door the same day. I'd probably get arrested. I could potentially get fired, not mentioning the social attacks at all. The ONLY reason I am as free as I am is that thankfully I live near one of the most leftist, atheist, un-religious universities in the country. That's all. That's literally the only reason I feel safe here as a fem, gay person. So believe me when I say I am talking from experience, and not any pre-conceived views. 

Edited by Pennywise
YOUR GOD IS NOT HERE MICHAEL NOR WILL HE EVER BE
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MJHolland

@PartySick it's obviously time to close this thread, it's gotten so far away from the situation at hand. 

8 minutes ago, Pennywise said:

Some of y'all sound like you want special treatment for Islam tbh. The fact that you cannot make drawings of Islam is... a rule of Islam. Not anything else. You cannot expect others to abide by those rules, at all. Sure, you can ASK them to. But even if they do not, the natural result to this should never be murder. There is a difference between lack of respect and murder. Those two are not equals, and yet, some people in this thread sound like they are trying to justify murder by equating it with lack of respect. And the fact that people are coming here FIRSTLY to defend people like this and THEN to condemn murder is disgusting. Human life > any religious value. If your priorities are not in this order, there seems to be a problem. 

Also, having Muslim friends does not equal to living in a violently Islamic country at all, but I won't even talk about that tbh. 

Buddy I have no stake in this. I'm not a religious person at all. And these attacks are awful and we all condemn them. 

But your, Admin's, and others anti-Muslim rhetoric is dangerous and only serves to further divide us. 

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MJHolland

Also love that we've let this narrative form that Muslim-majority countries are violent and barbaric. 

Y'all are something else. 

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lego
10 minutes ago, Admin said:

Same guy, a week later:

https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/523008-chechen-leader-macrons-stance-on-muhammad-cartoons-forcing-people

His message is basically, "We condemn the acts of terror, but you are forcing us into them".

Islam is a peaceful religion (but be ready to get killed if you disagree).

 

Sorry, but you were talking about lack of condemnation from muslim leaders (not to mention they’re mostly dictators), even infamous Chechen leader and it seems like they all condemned recent terror attacks in France. You knew that, but instead you claimed they all support it and people who live in their countries do too. 

“His message is basically____” I didn’t really need interpretation of his words by a person who blames all muslims for these attacks. 

Person can be against attacks and also against mocking cartoons, discrimination against/ and demonization of a minority. You can condemn multiple things at the same time.

Not gonna even comment on hateful last sentence. If that was true, most people wouldn’t be alive today. 

racist ppl really be like “so just because I’m a racist that makes me racist ??? wow”

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